Jobs, discrimination and the 'motherhood penalty': what can be done? Come tell MNHQ what you think

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

Lots of you will have seen the recent stories about the Equality and Human Rights Commission's report into maternity and pregnancy discrimination, which found that around 54,000 mothers each year are illegally discriminated against at work.

When we surveyed MNers recently about maternity and work, you told us that you overwhelmingly agree that the 'motherhood penalty' exists, and most of those surveyed (65%) believed having children had a negative effect on their career.

So we'd like to hear what you think about how both explicit discrimination, and wider difficulties faced by mothers going back into the workplace, can be tackled, over and above the enforcement of laws that are already in place.

Do you work for an employer (or are you one yourself) who is very successful at welcoming mothers back in to the workplace?

What practical steps can employers take? (These can be steps taken within organisations, between organisations, and between organisations and employees - just for starters...) Do you have any examples of strategies that have worked, either as an employer or employee?

Are there tweaks (or bigger changes) that could be brought in to start to tackle this problem in a more systematic way?

We'd really love to hear your experiences and ideas, whether experience-based or completely blue-sky.

For those of you who like reading government documents, there's also a current consultation into the gender pay gap, and we may use the responses from this thread to help to inform a response to that as well.

Thanks
MNHQ

companies need to offer onsite childcare facilities subsidised if necessary if i was an employer its exactly what i would do

along with offsetting working hours ie allowing parents/everyone to work extra hours when they can (and when you need them to) and save them up like paid holiday for when they need to cut their hours or take emergency time off parents would be under less stress if their child is ill/school holiday/etc as they would know there bills would still be covered

my dad used to have a holiday fund in his job where they set aside a portion of his wages for him and gave it him back at christmas or in the factory fortnight

I work for a large employer in the private sector. The maternity package is quite good. When I returned I dropped to p/t (4 days/week) - there are quite a number who work on that basis, both male and female. My boss has also been understanding when I've had to dash off to collect a sick child from nursery.

My issues/concerns are:

• When on maternity leave I became invisible to the company. I lost my desk, my phone number. Almost all communications ceased.
• I arranged a KIT day, arranging to meet with various colleagues. When I got there, every single one either cancelled or cut the session short due to 'other urgent things'. That hardly made me feel a valued member of the team.
• It is very difficult to use KIT days when you have an ebf baby, and/or if you have no local family who can mind the baby whilst you go into work.
• Although the official working day finishes at a sensible time for childcare, there is still a culture around some senior managers to schedule late meetings which you either can't attend or have to leave early.
• Childcare costs are crippling, especially those weeks the free 15 hours are not available
• I am dreading the logistics when the eldest starts school in September. At least the private nursery was open 7:45-18:00 every weekday except bank holidays. Suddenly I'm having to worry about breakfast clubs, after school clubs, holiday clubs, inset days, visits to the school for special assemblies, nativity plays, sports days, etc.
• And when they get to secondary school they will be latchkey kids because there is no provision for children at that age.

I did give up work, it was difficult and expensive but I made that choice for me and my baby in part because of what I had seen my friends and colleagues go through. I went back later into a career that allowed me to be an independent human being as well as an employee so it is possible.

My mother was a wonderful help at times when I needed support at home. I notice that young women around me now also have parents staying for extended periods at times. I do appreciate the help I had at key moments because childcare, good childcare, is very, sometimes prohibitively, expensive.

I also made friends with other women and started share-care arrangements, all very informal but I think we all understood that no one should exploit anyone else so everyone was quick to make invitations to other children when they were available. It worked for me. But I did not (usually) have blinkered and disrespectful bosses who felt work should always be the centre of employees attention. I have no answers really apart from that respect and trust make life easier and more efficient for all.

I've just been reading through and would like to say that now my children are grown I willingly take on extra late work. When I was childless I didn't mind either. My experience was that other colleagues were equally unconcerned. I was also very grateful to people who helped me when I still had school age children and tried to help them when I could too, there is always something you can do.

I did once have a poisonous line manager who, knowing that I had a child who was not easily settling in to a new school, deliberately called a last minute meeting on a day when she knew I had promised to pick him up as my hours that day should have allowed ; luckily I got a friend to take him home with her but he was upset. I learned from the experience and remembered not to mention when I was picking him up in future. But I was incredibly touched at the way other colleagues sympathised and even started to help by distracting her on days when I needed to get away. She eventually went to another organisation and got pregnant herself, I hope no-one ever treated her the way she tried to treat me. But the point I am making is how kind other people were. I think most people understand that this is a small part of your time in a career and they don't begrudge helping out.

The key thing for me is the complete and utter lack of part time jobs in professional fields.

In the past the cost and quality of childcare used to be a huge issue, but we are past those days now and anyway that's why I stopped working full time in the first place.

Wrt KIT days, I think the companies try not to keep you in the loop or copy you into emails because they don't want you to be distracted by work or feel obliged to reply. I do honestly think that. That's the case for me anyway.

Wrt understanding bosses, I think at the end of the day, it's very difficult for people to understand unless they are in the same position as you are. Sure there are the odd ones who are b empathetic, but in general, I don't think they get it until they themselves are in that position. I had a senior member of staff who didn't understand why women with young children find it difficult to write papers. Until his wife was pregnant and him being v much wanting to be part of the growing process, took on a lot of the baby duties.

He then said he finally understood why and had to send papers off at 2am when baby was up.

You have a point wrt KIT days NK5BM3. But then when you do return after maternity leave they expect you to be immediately up to speed on everything going on even though you've been out the loop for 8 months.

Chicken, it would be economically impossible for the majority of firms to provide onsite childcare. And it would involve taking children on a commute which many parents wouldn't want to do.

For places like hospitals employing hundreds or thousands where many are driving to work, yes it's a good idea. For offices with say 50 people of whom maybe 10 have pre schoolers and only 4 require childcare (the rest having SAHPs or family or preferring a childminder near home) it wouldn't work.

Yeah hawkeye it's mad they think that surely you know about the upgrades or different styles or different rules now.

Again at my institution there are some depts which allow newly returned employees to a lower workload or a sabbatical so you can adjust back to your research and do little teaching and yet earn money. My dept on the other hand decided to give me 2 new modules to teach given that I returned in sept and therefore had no time to prepare for them at all (oh and at that time I was also on 3 days a week so literally had no time). No where did HR get involved because it was an issue for the dept.

Unsurprisingly, the nicer departments get stronger output and better collegiality.

When I was pregnant with my eldest daughter I was harassed by one of the directors & some of my colleagues. It made me feel as though I couldn't bare going back there after maternity ended, so I resigned. I contacted ACAS and even though I was encouraged to take the matter further, when confronted by the amount of time & money was involved in bringing my case to mediation I declined.
To make employment work for parents, I think our whole approach needs to change. The global world isn't 9-5 so neither should our jobs be.

I think it's an issue for the government and employers to fix. While employers need to be properly open to flexibility, the government need to offer help with the cost. Most of my friends in the UK are paying as much as their mortgage in childcare costs. We would be in the same position if in the UK. The vouchers are a joke in terms of the amount. Let's make it 100% of childcare costs, up to the gross salary of the worker.

I do think NHS hospitals should have onsite daycare that's 24/7. Rather than have hospital staff watching children of sick parents, they can be taken to the daycare center and the police/ social services take over from there.

I am currently expecting DC2 and my experience when pregnant with DC1 was largely positive. I was very much kept in the loop re. any changes/developments at work during my maternity leave, encouraged to attend any training courses I wanted to (most are conducted online in virtual classrooms so I just had to log on and follow them) and invited to all work summits etc. I work for a global advertising agency and a lot can change in a few months in the specific area I work in so I wanted to keep in touch but not compromise the time I was spending with my baby. I attended KIT days with my baby in tow on a few occasions as I did not have childcare. In one meeting with a colleague I had to BF my baby (bottle refuser and EBF) and no-one seemed to notice or care. I was promoted when I returned to work (but was very much expected to hit the ground running)

It probably helps that there are a number of women with children in senior positions in my office. My manager has 3 kids although she is very much a believer in returning to work ASAP and took 3-4 months mat leave max after each child. The hours are long and can be quite brutal in media/agencies but on the while there is a good degree of flexibility. Def agree that the govt needs to do more to help working parents especially with the costs of childcare.

I am currently going through a horrible and lengthy legal fight with my former employer, so I'm limited in what I can say here. But I have been virtually written off by my industry as I wasn't prepared to work 9-7, five days a week, even though logically I can do huge parts of my job from anywhere at any time.
Also, probably more importantly, I have only been able to legally fight this because I have money. If I hadn't I'd just have had to accept my fifteen year career being torpedoed because I chose to have my son. What is even more irritating, is that clearly other employers are able to see mothers as useful human beings. I'm still perfectly capable of doing the job I was ousted from, it's just ridiculous.

I'm trying to get back to work in my career in a part time position anywhere related to what I used to do. Impossible. I move sideways and I don't have relevant experience. I go for a lower post, a job I did 15 years ago, and they preferred someone they could train. I look for a new start and all the internships are for recent graduates or up to 25 year olds.

I am old (under 45) and a carer. Double whammy.

After working bloody hard for over fifteen years (including a PhD), the expected consequences to my career of having a baby have contributed to me delaying...and delaying...and delaying. Stories like 'One more promotion and I'll be safer, a few more pay rises and we can afford £1000pm childcare'.

Except it looks like I may have left it too late, and I don't feel any safer in my position than I did ten years ago.

Long hours cultures, expected availability 24/7, travel, full time only, men not having or taking equal leave, the list goes on. No wonder birth rates are dropping.

I work for the nhs in a role that is about 30% male to 70% female ratio.
Time and time again I have noticed that the males are accelerated to the management positions largely because they work full time throughout their career. I now work part time and know that my chances of promotion are slim to none unless I go back full time at some stage. So I have reached you limit in term of earning capacity as I am at the top of my band for the foreseeable future. I realise I am lucky to be able to work part time but it seems a shame that you are only allowed to get to certain level doing it. There is also absolutely no flexibility in terms of the hours I work,or school holidays.

Many families want to limit their child's attendance at nursery to 3 or 4 days a week when the mother returns from work after maternity leave. However the only way to do this is usually to make a permanent change of contract. For us, because after our first child, we felt we might one day have a second child, the most feasible way was to have me (the mother) request to work 3 days a week. Had my partner started working part time, any second period of maternity leave would mean an even greater reduction in income second time round.

Surely what most families need is the option of returning to full time work when the children are older (if good quality wrap around care can be found). While changes to working patterns have to be made on a permanent basis, there will be no progress to equality of take up of part time working and the mother will be stuck in the part time go-nowhere trap, unless they are willing to consign their one year old to full time nursery care.

If the business has capacity ie hasn't taken on someone to cover the work or hasn't reduced the work it takes on, then most would surely welcome a change back to full time?

For me, part time working at 0.6 FTE, although not perfect in every sense, gives the best of both worlds. I love lots of time to bring up my DC but also enjoy the stimulation of work. I know I'm fortunate that my employer agreed to let me return on that basis, though I do paperwork etc in the evenings and feel that my employer gets a good deal too.

I am content to remain on my current level career wise and wouldn't want the extra workload that a promotion would bring right now while the DCs are small.

People often mention how well things work in Sweden and other Nordic countries, in terms of affordable full time childcare. However, from speaking to a Swedish friend it seems that the flip side is that returning to work full time when the baby turns a year old is the only socially acceptable thing to do. There are very few SAHMs and few part time workers, especially minimal below 30 hours a week. This is reflected by there being little in the way of toddler groups as the vast majority of mums are back at work full time.

I can only speak for myself when I say that I absolutely wouldn't want to feel that returning to work full time is my only option with young DC. I would feel that I was missing out on so much and would rather become a SAHM than work FT if that was what the choice was between.

Yonic, not necessarily - in my public sector organisation, your team budget is set for the year. If a part-time member of staff wanted to increase hours, it would mean either a blanket no or else putting together a business case for the increased budget, which would be decided by someone far enough up the tree that they would have no idea whether the team were genuinely struggling and in need of the extra help. This makes approval very hit or miss.

DH and I work for the same organisation. We both do compressed hours (36 hrs in 4 days). This means DC only go to nursery 3 days a week. Most of my team do compressed hours, even the childless man. This makes it easier for everyone. Working from home is also allowed and we try to actively use it for fear it gets taken away. You are not allowed to work from home and care for children at the same time, though - if the children are there they must have another adult in charge and you must work in a separate room and try to discourage toddlers from running in to talk to mummy.

DH was keen to share parental leave. I was not. I wanted to breastfeed my children and so I had to take the leave (well, I could have expressed, but I didn't want to). That was the main reason for us, as we earn roughly similar amounts. If DH earned more than me it would have been pointless even discussing him taking parental leave.

When I returned to work after having my 3dc I went back full time & was completely miserable my work & home were both suffering. So I took advantage of my company flexible working policy & reduced my days. Now I'm back full time but again taking advantage of flexible policy I work longer on some days so I can do school pick ups & drop offs.
My boss was also extremely kind when my middle dd was diagnosed with a blood disorder & I was allowed to work hours & holidays around whenever she is ill.
companies MUST start to treat there employees as people instead of just numbers or commodities

I work in a male-dominated industry. Maternity benefits are good (although KIT days MUST be full days or are unpaid -against the law, I believe?). My employers are very accommodating about flexible hours. I am the butt of the office jokes though, that I don't do a full day etc. And implying that I am lazy/incompetent/going home to put my feet up. I have stagnated in my job - I no longer get any extra projects or asked to do ANYTHING beyond my usual dutiesduties (one manager doles out extra roles and projects). While a part of me is ok witb this as working with young children is stressful enough, I also believe that my career will not progress while at this employer. I cannot change jobs as flexible working is not done by other companies in the industry (one recruiter all but laughed in my face). If my employers were questioned, I genuinely believe they would respond "ooh we didn't ask you to do x because we don't want to put you under too much pressure". But, at the end of the day, I try and appreciate the good in my job, and there is a lot of good.

One thing to remember is that standard Nordic hours are 35hrs/wk. I might be PT but my hours average about 45hrs/wk.

Also I'm not sold on equality in Denmark. DH is Danish working for a Danish company. There are very few women of child bearing age in management (middle or upper). When there is a need for a sales person they talk of bringing in a guy while if they need help with admin they talk of bringing in a girl. Drives me nuts and I'm seen as some sort of zoo attraction because I work past 5pm.

The reality is that the culture in the UK and Denmark is to pay lip service to women in the workplace. The men in charge of many organizations are not interested in finding solutions to help both mothers and fathers continuing to work FT, if that's what they want.

I think there is also an issue of a vocal minority of women who harp on about how returning to work damages children and how mothers are neglecting their DC if they work. They are the same women who were extremely vocal about government plans to change ratios in childcare which would have helped reduced the cost of childcare. Quite frankly the ratios in the UK are a joke and every other country in the western world have higher ratios plus lower costs.

I think the penalty is more for part time work than motherhood. I went part time after DC1 without giving it much thought- it was what everyone seemed to do and my workplace accommodated it. However I was bored rigid as I was effectively given all the dull stuff no-one else wanted.

But (blessing in disguise) I then suffered secondary infertility and decided I had to make something of my career if I were to only have one child, so took a full time role in another department. Since then my career has gone from strength to strength. I did eventually have DC2 but took only 6 months mat leave, did all my KIT days and continue to work full time. We do now have a nanny and I concede that it would be much tougher without. I am now senior enough that I have a fair bit of flexibility in terms of hours, working from home etc so that I don't feel the children miss out. Compared to many, many fathers, I see way more of my DC on a daily basis, so don't think I have anything to feel guilty about.

It is unfortunate, but our culture is such that part time work does not have the same status as full time, but I think that would be true of both men and women.