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Should schools consider outsourcing homework abroad? Or using computer technology to mark work? Your thoughts

94 replies

JaneMumsnet · 29/04/2015 14:56

Hello,

We're a little flummoxed by a request we've had to comment about an education expert's suggestion that schools should consider sending pupils' work abroad to be marked, to help free up teachers' time.

Rebecca Allen, director of Education Datalab and reader in economics at UCL's Institute of Education made the suggestion at a conference.

She said that outsourcing marking can be "incredibly reliable" and also
went on to say that in the United States, there are people who are looking at using computers to mark texts, using the same types of technology used for online language translation apps and programmes.

What do you think? As usual, we'd love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks, MNHQ

OP posts:
ReallyTired · 03/05/2015 09:25

Charis, your children's grammar school will find itself in special measures if the marking is not up to standard. Improvement marking works because it tells a child where they have done well and where they need to improve. Unlike traditional marking, the teacher is actually teaching. Both my children's schools have improvement marking. Dd's primary has tickled pink and green for growth. Ds's secondary had two stars (two things that are good about piece of work) and a stick (cartoon picture of a stick with a comment where the student can improve)

Stitchintime1 · 03/05/2015 09:26

A very silly idea indeed.

noblegiraffe · 03/05/2015 09:26

Charis, if the teachers at your grammar school really try to stop new teachers from telling kids how their work could be improved (which is what a 'next step' should be), or acknowledging where they have done well (success criteria) then that's appalling.

noblegiraffe · 03/05/2015 09:29

Oh, but insisting that the feedback has to be in a particular format (2 stars and a wish) or particular colours is bloody annoying and time wasting. Making sure the kids actually read the feedback is important, the colour it's in isn't.

Stitchintime1 · 03/05/2015 09:34

The colour stuff and the formats are tedious bit of trending. What matters is the two way communication. Sometimes the best marking is actually praise (though that's not the in thing right now.) Sometimes it's a telling off. And sometimes, it's a question. And... so on. A good teacher should know how to write to the students in a way that helps them. And a good student knows how to respond to the feedback in a way that helps them grow.

Charis1 · 03/05/2015 10:20

Oh, but insisting that the feedback has to be in a particular format (2 stars and a wish) or particular colours is bloody annoying and time wasting.

Exactly.

Two wishes and a star is exceptionally detrimental, but all of these stupid stupid stupid marking policies is an utter waste of everyone's time.

Just look at what you are saying!

you want teachers to spend time on composing the wording success criteria, learning objectives, etc ( This has to be done exactly according to policy, you need to be trained in the policy of your school, department, faculty, etc, and will not be allowed to use the policy of the department you work in the rest of the week)

you want teachers to spend time moderating success criteria, learning objectives, etc, meeting to check everyone is using the same policy, and the wording of each fits in with the school, department or faculty policy, then having further meetings when the school, department or faculty policy changes.

You want teachers to spend time copying out success criteria, learning objectives etc into their planners , for quick reference, and into the staff shared drive, for general access, and into the department records, for inspection purposes.

you want teachers to spend time copying out success criteria, learning objectives etc onto the board, or typed into the smart board if you have one at the start of the lesson. ( you are supposed to have them on both, the smart board, if you have one, to by amended and interacted with in the lesson, and also on the fixed board, if you have one, so anyone walking into the room will see them clearly, even if you are on a different place in the smartboard.

You then want pupils to spend time copying them down as well?

you then want marking to be limited to reference back to these success criteria, learning objectives etc and colour coded?

Are you aware how many there are supposed to be? for a one hour lesson, a minimum of 5, 3 differentiated subject related, + one literacy + one numeracy, although they might not all have to be copied into the children's work. Then there are there additional ones which appear and disappear according to fad, employability, ethnic minority inclusion, British values etc.

And then you want the targets set. Again the targets have to be planned, moderated, copied out in triplicate, dated, time linited, followed up, recorded, recorded, recorded, you have no idea how many places these have to be recorded in, in fact, revisiting on the specified date and recording how far someone has progressed is actually MORE IMPORTANT THAN MEETING THE TARGET!

And, this is all done INSTEAD of teaching, in spite of the fact that it has a DETRIMENTAL affect on pupils, who either totally fail to develop any autonomy at all, and expect and demand to be spoon fed for their entire education, or become so bored and disheartened by the whole process, especially the fact they can never ever be told something they have done is good enough.

Research shows target grades for older children in particular impact negatively on motivation and progress.

informal formative feedback during the working, then informal summative feedback after, for several pieces of work a week, or else simply marked as right/wrong, with a grade, and leave students to develop evaluation for themselves - in other words, the old fashioned way, that is a thousand times better.

noblegiraffe · 03/05/2015 10:51

Charis, who has said that they want any of that? Confused

else simply marked as right/wrong, with a grade, and leave students to develop evaluation for themselves - in other words, the old fashioned way, that is a thousand times better.

This is nonsense. Kids can't decide for themselves how best to improve their work, they're kids not experts. Also, if you give a kid a grade on a piece of work, that's all they look at. Individual pieces of work should not be graded at all.

Stitchintime1 · 03/05/2015 11:03

Some things are right or wrong. In some subjects.

pickledsiblings · 03/05/2015 11:13

DS2's school use WALT and WILF and these are preprinted on small bits of paper that they stick in to their books. At the front of each exercise book there are 2 letter marking codes listed (about 10 of them) and these are used throughout. The DC also have purple pen time everyday where they try to improve on a piece of work they have done.

All of this appears to work well but the teachers have undoubtably spent a lot of time setting it all up. For assessment this school also uses the original APP grids (in a way that they were never really intended to be used) and again this appears to work well.

When spellings and times tables are wrong, a dot rather than a cross is placed next to them.

ReallyTired · 03/05/2015 12:18

Children need to know where to improve. If anyone is constantly criticised they get demoralised. Just look at the morale of teachers to see what happens when you constantly point out every fault. If you point out 20 mistakes then it's hard for the child to know where to start.

Research shows that improvement marking works. Children make faster progress. Improvement marking even works in maths.

Charis1 · 03/05/2015 12:48

WALT and WILF - very damaging, total waste of time, sanity and resources

Also, if you give a kid a grade on a piece of work, that's all they look at. at least it is looked at, over 90% of feedback isn't looked at.

Research shows that improvement marking works - making suggestions for improvement works, not this pile of bullshit we call "improvement marking" - that doesn't work in the slightest.

Kids can't decide for themselves how best to improve their work actually, yes they can, if they are given half a chance to, and if they can't THAT is the time to help

chibi · 03/05/2015 12:57

Marking/feedback serves many purposes

One important one is letting me know where my pupils are in terms of their understanding, so I can plan for future lessons

marking that is so incredibly time consuming as some of that described on this thread can't really leave much time for planning, surely

chibi · 03/05/2015 13:00

I also take issue with the obsession with documenting everything on paper

Written feedback is not the only way for pupils to receive commentary on their work

It may not even be the best one

It is something that school leaders can point to to say 'yes, all is well here'

Is it them we do it for?

Charis1 · 03/05/2015 13:05

If you think any of this crap actual works, I am sorry, you are wrong, but the grade God ofsted has decreed it shall be so, and will smite any naysayers from the face of the Earth...

And who are this omnipotent immortals?

Are they experienced teachers ????

NO!

Oh, so are they competent and reliable scientists?

Again NO!

In fact have been demonstrably and repeatedly shown to be incapable of commissioning coherent research, or interpreting or evaluating the research of others.

They are MANAGERS. Even the ones that once stood in a classroom in the dim and distant past have been little other than managers throughout their whole career.

And what IS the actual result of their decree?

Incalculable damage to the education and development of hundreds and thousands of children.

Teachers with so much shite to wade through every day that there is no time to eat, sleep or see their own families.

Work being thrown in the bin because all work that exists has to be "deep marked" so the ONLY possible answer is to stop some of it existing ( There is another thread on why homework is being thrown away without being marked)

And on the news today... two thirds of London schools cannot fill their vacancies.

Last year I was one of the tens of thousands of teachers walking out of the profession. I am now retraining with birkbeck college, and working part time, I am doing some free range consultancy for one London borough, and working as a supply in another.

Ironically, as a supply, one of my main engagements is to do marking! You wouldn't believe the crap that some schools and departments have come up with. has to be marked in purple, has to be marked in green, has to be marked in red, cannot write a cross to indicate something is wrong, ticks must be right handed, targets have to be in format A because format B has been proved ineffective, move to the next school, and targets have to be in format B, because format A has been shown not to work, you have to praise someone twice before you criticise, you have to praise someone three times before you criticise, you have to praise someone 4 times before you criticise....etc etc etc.

(By the way, the net out come of all of this is young adults who can't ever accept or trust praise, as they have learnt it is always and only building up to a "ready paid for" criticism.

Every school and consortium has different rules, and has different contradictory research, based on who their last ofsted inspector was, or who attended which of a myriad of contradictory teacher training packages,

But, I don't care! I roll in at 8, mark according to whatever loony loopy policy, and lists of options I am given, pick up my £120, and leave at 4, whether I have completed 4 exercise books in that time, or 40.

But if you think this is beneficial to your children, or a good use of school resources, I'm sorry to say you have been hoodwinked.

pickledsiblings · 03/05/2015 13:07

WALT and WILF - very damaging, total waste of time, sanity and resources

Not quite sure how it can be damaging. Care to elaborate? WALT just helps to focus students on the aim/point of the lesson and WILF lets them know what's expected of them. Metacognition and all that...

Charis1 · 03/05/2015 13:10

it is just another name for the success criteria and learning objectives i have already talked about, pickledsiblings. of course every school/ department has a slightly different guidelines..... here I go again!

pickledsiblings · 03/05/2015 13:10

I do take tour point though Charis that Ofsted is not who we should be doing this for.

Charis1 · 03/05/2015 13:13

I do take tour point though Charis that Ofsted is not who we should be doing this for

I know, but it is all anything is done for. Even a simple task, which used to be just part of my every day job, such as correcting a spelling, has become massive, because now I have to PROVE I corrected the spelling, RECORD that I corrected the spelling, ASSESS THE IMPACT of correcting the spelling, etc etc etc, all of this is for ofsted, no one else.

the moral of which is... don't get caught correcting any spellings!

Stitchintime1 · 03/05/2015 13:28

I think as a rough rule of thumb, anything that can be reduced to an acronym is shite. That's shallow, hateful, irritating etc. I'm sure someone will finish it off for me.

So, there goes WALT and EBI and WILF. It should all be renamed WTF or FFS.

chibi · 03/05/2015 13:43

My son who was in reception last year had ebi/www written all over his books when I went in for parent teacher meetings.

He was pre literate, and I only saw the books that one time.

Who was his poor teacher writing all of that for?

Fwiw she was fantastic, and I know she gave him verbal feedback, knew him well and knew how to get the best from him. But why was her time wasted writing feedback that he couldn't read, that I was unlikely to see?

Stitchintime1 · 03/05/2015 13:51

It's for whoever is doing the book scrutiny.

pickledsiblings · 03/05/2015 13:57

I'm interested Charis1 that you think this damages students and makes them over-reliant on input from the teacher. The intention with all this is obviously the opposite but the road to hell and all that...

chibi · 03/05/2015 14:07

Why is it necessary to do things which are pointless to appease a book scrutineer?

This feedback could not be read by my son. I was unlikely to see it. And yet, there it was, on every bit of work. This doesn't seem like a waste of time to you?

Would her time not have been better spent actually doing things to help my son learn, I.e., her job?

chibi · 03/05/2015 14:09

What kind of person scrutinising work expects to see inauthentic stuff which is clearly happening only for their benefit?

What a wasteful, cynical and just wrongheaded approach to education Sad

Charis1 · 03/05/2015 14:10

90% of what teachers are forced to do is a waste of time, chibi.

I'm not a teacher now, but I'm still working in schools, and with children. I get so angry with the abuse teachers put up with. In the borough where I am doing consultancy, one of the departments I was with this week were planning their meetings and moderating, 8am-4pm sunday ( they will be there right now) and 8am-4pm Monday ( bank holiday) several of them have babies and toddlers, and will have to bring them in.