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OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

84 replies

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:10

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 17:56

@MrsLettuce

We've had the discussion several times MrsLettuce and as far as we know we've implemented the policies we came up with at the time.

One of the problems is there is absolutely no consensus, among posters, about how these threads should be dealt with. Many MNers feel VERY strongly that genuine users who feel suicidal should be able to use MN as a source of support and help. Others feel VERY strongly that they should not.

I know Rowan, but, TBH I've seen enough rounds of this exact same 'policy crisis' in the 7 or 8 years I've been here to start to think that, maybe, just, maybe, MNHQ don't actually want or intend to make any sort of clear policy decision WRT suicide threads but just want all sides of the argument to feel heard.

Whatever is decided people will be upset, there is very rarely consensus and always a fuck load of whingeing over anything MNHQ do. But, MNHQ are the parents here, as it were, and are surely aware that not making a decision is also a decision.

I think it's time HQ 'personed up', made a decision and owned that decision, even if that is a wooly 'we'll just carry on as we always have done thankyouverymuch'.

We get you MrsL and we will do our utmost to person up. We are waiting until we have all the relevant input from all the relevant places though.

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 17:58

@TheOrchardKeeper

It's all getting a little MH-shaming. People post about other very distressing things (stillbirths, misscarriages, cancer etc) and no one would ask them not to or ridicule them for posting on MN instead of having rl support etc. But that's what I've read a lot of, MNHQ.

The suicide threats are different but people keep mentioning how MN isn't a MH support network. No, it isn't. But there are threads and posters who do support each other and there is NOTHING wrong with that. No different to the general health board.

It's been very upsetting to hear how many people think it's wrong for people to use MN as a source of support. Some of us haven't got many other options. And, as the last few days on here have shown, misunderstanding, prejudice and ridicule towards MH is still rife...

Thanks for this and we will do our best to try to come to a balanced decision. We know lots of users feel very strongly about this.

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 18:16

Just wanted to say that we will keep checking in on this over the next couple of days so do please keep posting up your thoughts. Thanks all Wine

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2014 09:45

Morning everyone and thanks v much for your additions overnight

@OhYouBadBadKitten

Mn can be a hugely supportive place and I dont want it to become the sort of place where we can only talk about happy things - but sad times come on a sliding scale - when do we pull the plug and say this is beyond the capability of mn to help and support?

Yes - this would indeed be the extremely tricky bit if that's the route we end up going down.

FYI all, we're hoping to sit down and look at all this early next week (some key people are out of the office today) and take a proper decision then. We're going to close this thread over the weekend as we know some people are finding the discussion a bit distressing (or irritating Grin) and we won't be able to monitor it closely over the w/e, so if you have things to add please jump in soonish.

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2014 09:59

@magimedi

Could MNHQ answer a question about the Night Watch, please?

What time do they take over & if you see a dodgy post, be it trolling, spamming or whatever, do you press the report button on the post or do you have to go to the Night Watch thread to report it?

Thanks.

We like to keep handover hours on the downlow magimedi cos otherwise it's like hanging an 'Open for business' sign up for trouble-makers. MNHQ (ie not Nightwatchers) are around seven days a week, from very early until very late, all the year round - we are NOT a Monday-Friday 9-5 operation. (Just wanted to reiterate that as it's come up a few times!)

But yes, for the Nightwatch, please either report as normal, or put a (neutrally phrased - 'would you mind taking a look here please?') post (with a link to the relevant post or thread) in the Nightwatch topic.

NWers get an alert when a thread, post or posters is reported a certain number of times, so if there's something causing a big ruckus and they're online they will be aware.

But in all of this please remember that they're under strict instructions not to make judgement calls or get involved in shades-of-grey situations or common-or-garden bunfights. We've asked them to hide things that are really egregious, or annoying obvious spam. We review everything they've done when we get in the next morning.

We may well add guidelines for them about suicide threads, but for now that's all we ask them to do. And they're volunteers and doing it out of the kindness of their hearts so please be nice (we're sure you would anyway).

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2014 10:06

@JustScreamNobHurts

Thank god it'll be closed over the weekend. Don't leave it unsupervised again.

Wow, I never thought I'd say that to Rowan. I like unsupervised, unsupervised is fun. Especially with trolly man journalists who slag off mumsnet Grin

Oh heck, is there one of those around? was so hoping for a quiet weekend

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2014 10:15

@WannaBe

"I'd be inclined to trust MNHQ on what feeds trolls. They are up to date with how forums like this work, they exchange best practice with the HQs of other similar forums, they know the latest research. Facts and all that." riiight. So that's why mn is pretty much the only site where suicide note style threads are allowed to stand then? (Confused) that's why they're only now seeking guidance on this even though posters have been calling for this to be changed for years? (Hmm)

Don't think this is fair tbh WannaBe. You're quite right that we've had this discussion before, but the users' consensus was broadly to leave things as they were. (With the exception of moving threads to MH which we have been remiss on.)

As someone else said (sorry, can't remember who!) one consequence of us usually doing our best to run big decisions past users is that we cannot satisfy everyone. But the fact that we did not do what a particular group of users wanted is not the same as doing nothing.

Apols for defensiveness Grin

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2014 11:12

We're really glad you're feeling better wombat and understand you may feel under pressure to explain yourself.

Going forwards we'd be really grateful if you could keep your posts on this thread on-topic - that is, addressing the general points raised in the OP around what we should do about threads by posters who are feeling suicidal, and related matters.

We don't usually have an on-topic rule so apologies for being bossy I ruddy love being bossy but it's important to keep this thread on the rails, and that won't be possible if it becomes an extended discussion of your particular thread.

Best wishes from MNHQ and we hope your recovery continues Flowers

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2014 13:52

@seasalt

Haven't read all the thread, and I'm sure somebody will have asked already, but why can't Mumsnet put "member since ...." or "number of posts" like you see on other forums and have it attached to the user whether they namechange or not?

@LittleBearPad

People have asked Seasalt but MNHQ haven't responded.

No we did respond (although we appreciate the thread is pretty unwieldy and very long). Right now we're in listening mode not decision-taking mode but mode-switching and personning up with extreme prejudice will be happening next week.

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2014 15:28

@WannaBe

Nice to know that mn are stifling discussion over the weekend. Presumably they hope that by next week posters will have forgotten about it and moved on.

Crikey. That's quite an accusation.

We said we'd close the thread a) because it was suggested by and agreed to by a few posters on here, many of whom thought this was dragging on for too long; and b) because we won't be able to monitor it closely over the weekend and we don't want it to become a bunfight.

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2014 16:52

OK folks - we're going to lock this one soon for the weekend.

Please don't start new threads on this topic over the weekend; we won't be able to monitor them closely and we're aware lots of people feel this debate has been going on for long enough already. Feels like everyone's had a tough week, one way and the other, and a massive bunfight over the weekend with lots of accusations and hurt feelings isn't what anyone wants.

Plus Olivia's on duty tonight and you KNOW how scary she is.

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2014 16:56

Oh no, it's Ellen on tonight. Who is ALSO very scary.

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2014 17:00

Nerf it's our goal (always) to deal with reports and threads using the Talk Guidelines and the spirit of the site as our lodestones (can you have two lodestones?) but with discretion, humanity and common sense. If anyone breaks any rule persistently we will deal with them. But the people we aim to come down on hardest of all is people trolling/deliberately trouble-making in this lovely and unique corner of the internet.

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2014 17:03

Have good weekends all

Flowers Brew Wine Cake Bike

RebeccaMumsnet · 27/10/2014 16:41

Hi all,

We are reopening this thread now to continue the discussion.
Please do post your views.

We are having a meeting later on this week at HQ to have a look at what everyone thinks from this thread and others and talk about the advice we will have by then from outside specialist organisations, all being well.

We will pop in and out of this thread over the next few days and follow up on the more recent posts but we won't have any kind of definitive policy changes until we have a chance to sit down and meet with all of the information we have asked for.

Apologies this is taking a while but we hope you can see that it's an important issue that we'd like to address and this can sometimes take a while.

Wine Cake Thanks

RowanMumsnet · 27/10/2014 20:06

Hello everyone

First off, on That Thread: to be honest it was a cock-up. The replies that were sent and the post that was posted shouldn't have been. And we should have gone through the thread more thoroughly following early reports of troll-hunting.

(MNHQ is of course The Borg, as you all know, and we assume collective responsibility for both our brilliant decisions and for our cock-ups, so this isn't to cast nasturtiums on the MNHQer concerned.)

It is true that - as lots have pointed out - marbles has a lovely and engaging writing style; that the arc of the thread was very neat and satisfying; and that in her penultimate post there was a material discrepancy between the two different versions, which marbles didn't address. So we do understand why some posters were cynical - but as ever the only thing we ask posters to do in these circs is to report to us, and to not use the thread to accuse another posting of trolling or making the entire thing up.

The poster has been around for some time, her previous posting history completely backs her up, we can see no banned or troublesome posters associated with her behind-the-scenes account details, and we have absolutely no reason to think her account was substantially untrue.

We realise we haven't covered ourselves in glory on this one - apologies.

BTW - please don't use this thread (or any other thread) to accuse her of lying or making stuff up.

RebeccaMumsnet · 28/10/2014 11:35

@trufflesnout

Rowan when do you expect to hear back from the Samaritans with their opinion of how to handle suicide threads?

We are hopeful we we will hear back by Friday truffle, but can't be sure.

RebeccaMumsnet · 28/10/2014 17:29

@wooooosualsuspect

If it's not real it's a troll thread.

You can't pick and choose your trolls

It can be a judgement call sometimes though Usual and we can see things at HQ that posters can't and can make better informed decisions on whether or not someone is a troll.

It's not always the case that if it looks like a troll, it is a troll.

It's not that simple at all. Our jobs would be considerably easier if that was the case.

Please do report and let us have a proper look from our end.

RebeccaMumsnet · 28/10/2014 20:24

@emotionsecho

Up depends whether MNHQ are saying NO Trolls or ONLY those trolls who are funny and entertaining. A definitive policy either way is required.

To be clear on this one, we always say no to trolls, regardless of how funny they may be.

If they are a troll, we will ban them. We may leave threads up for varying lengths of time but we always ban trolls.

RebeccaMumsnet · 28/10/2014 21:13

@usualsuspect333

Which is my point really. People will still make stuff up, some posters will think it's funny, some won't.

Nothing will change.

What would you like to see change usual?

We do see a difference between a nasty troll who is here to cause upset and hurt and a stupid troll who is here for half term the kicks but is harmless, mainly because they are so blatant.

Both will be banned when they are reported to us but we would probably deal with the aftermath slightly differently.

RebeccaMumsnet · 28/10/2014 22:02

@headlesslambrini

Re: trolling. Can MNHQ tell when there are several accounts to the same IP address? I have no idea how these things work but if so then if a 2nd or 3rd account is registered from the same IP address within a specified time frame then could this trigger some sort of delayed registration or a flag for MNHQ to check on posts / user activity before giving them full access to MN

We can see that, yes and we do have something like this in place - yes, we're being Grin

Thanks all for your feedback, we are still reading through and will be back with more comprehensive responses to some of the issues raised after we have met at the end of the week.

RowanMumsnet · 29/10/2014 10:08

Morning all

@LittleBearPad

Posters should be allowed to ask clarifying questions, any real poster would surely answer if they think they'll get better advice by making things clearer. Snide comments like 'is this your first post OP?' and bridge-dweller comments are just obnoxious.

Yes, this, basically. It's totally fine to say 'sorry, maybe I've misunderstood but xx and yy about your story don't seem to make sense'.

What's not fine is if this seems to be straying into a deliberate attempt to heavily imply disbelief/trolling while just about staying on the right side of the rules.

Of course it's not always obvious which is happening, which is where the headaches can come in from MNHQ's POV.

Equally, there can be an innocent explanation for xx and yy not quite adding up - people can disguise details to remain anonymous; the OP may not have perfectly understood a piece of information herself.

RowanMumsnet · 29/10/2014 14:27

@Corestrategy

I posted on a thread yesterday and the thread was deleted. Mumsnet said something like they had doubts about the poster. Some people on the thread had accused the OP of being goady. All the OP had done was ask why some single parents seemed to have more money than her. People then thought she was benefit bashing. So what? Why can't people have a discussion even if it is controversial?

It's not about the topic - in that case it was because the OP had a history of starting threads on hot-button topics, and also various things that we can see behind the scenes linked her to previously banned accounts.

RowanMumsnet · 29/10/2014 14:30

@JustScreamNobHurts

MNHQ simply don't appear to have the number of bodies to cope with the number of reports or the right HQers in at peak times for useage.

That's not how we see it tbh (though we wouldn't would we Grin). Although we're busy, we very rarely overwhelmed - usually only when something ridiculous (like Heartbleed) happens. Most days/evenings we clear almost everything that's been reported to us, and the Night Watch deal with egregious trolling and spamming overnight.

RowanMumsnet · 30/10/2014 10:22

@SplatTheScaryCat

i think its ridiculous, and i have done for a long time that a forum like this relies on volunteers and has 9-5 staff..

and please dont belittle us by perpetuating the lie that you're not.. its glaringly obvious to anyone who's been here as long as some of us has that reporting at the weekends and after 5pm is a complete waste of time!

We're not lying. We have paid staff on, seven days a week, until very late in the evening. (We're being deliberately vague because we don't want to tell trolls exactly when we knock off.)

It's simply untrue that there's no use in reporting after 5pm - as the many people who have reported after 5pm and got responses the same day would hopefully attest.

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