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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ can you please come and categorically state what opinions CAN be expressed toward DC?

103 replies

HoneyDragonMumshnet · 15/10/2014 18:47

Because at the moment your vague explanations referencing campaigns and what the site is about for deletions aren't helping.

The way I see it, your all embracing keeness to be supportive to ONE high profile parent who has experienced racing a child with a disability and suffered the loss of a child, is inadvertently hurting many many more parents who are suffering now. Suffering because of his policies.

I feel you ought to support them too.

Non of this is going away. It's going to get more prolific through party broadcasting and manifestos.

Parents NEED the right to express their hurt, loss and bitterness too, and they don't have a stage do it on, a nice suit to say it in and a good wage to think about it with.

So please, come up with something uniform so you don't have to make slapdash confusing deletions. Help YOUR parents on here to able to talk freely about this issues.

TIA Thanks

OP posts:
Welshwabbit · 16/10/2014 16:56

Justine, thank you for coming on this thread and for grappling with the issue. I can see why it isn't an entirely straightforward one from the pov of a parenting website. I posted on "the other thread" expressing concern that David Cameron had on more than one occasion seemed to me to be talking about his personal experiences with his son in a way that had the effect (if not, giving him the benefit of the most doubt possible, the intention) of shutting down debate. Rowan's comments on that thread suggested that my post should have been deleted. It wasn't and I now understand you to be saying that posts expressing this view won't be deleted in future. I know there are still borderline areas to be worked out, but that is helpful to me at least.

edamsavestheday · 16/10/2014 17:15

Hansard record of PMQs shows Cameron cited his experience of caring for 'people' with disabilities as a way of batting away questions about the minister for welfare reform's proposals to investigate paying £2 an hour to disabled people. This was clearly a reference to his late son.

Hansard - courtesy of Hakluyt on the other thread. At PMQs:

"Edward Miliband: We need to be clear about what the welfare reform Minister said, because it is very serious. He did not just say that disabled people were “not worth” the minimum wage. He went further and said that he was looking at

“whether there is something we can do…if someone wants to work for £2 an hour.”

Surely someone holding those views cannot possibly stay in the right hon. Gentleman’s Government?

The Prime Minister: Those are not the views of the Government. They are not the views of anyone in the Government. The minimum wage is paid to everybody, disabled people included. [Interruption.]

Mr Speaker: Order. Passions are running high but the answer from the Prime Minister must be heard, and I want to hear it.

The Prime Minister: Let me tell you that I do not need lectures from anyone about looking after disabled people, so I do not want to hear any more of that. We pay the minimum wage, we are reforming disability benefits, we want to help disabled people in our country and we want to help more of them into work. Instead of casting aspersions, why does not the right hon. Gentleman get back to talking about the economy?" (Bold is my emphasis

If Cameron brings his son into parliamentary debate on the government's attitudes to people with disabilities, members of the public have every right to comment on that.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 16/10/2014 17:42

You actually think there is a valid comparison between allegations that a private couple murdered their child and a politician cynically using the death of his child to win favour.

How? How is it adding insult to injury? His comments are public addresses, not private comments. He has no need to mention Ivan in public. None. IF he doesn't want people to comment on his doing so then he shouldn't do it.

THIS^

nippiesweetie · 16/10/2014 17:52

OP from the other thread here. Glad that this is being thrashed out. I'm much more of a lurker than a poster (recently name changed) and still learning about Mumsnet.

I was pretty surprised that the deleted posts and my post, which Rowan said was in breach but left up, were problematic. They seemed well within Mumsnet's normal guidelines to me. I didn't know about the abnormal guidelines.

We have to be able to speak about politician as politicians. As I said on the other thread UK politics is a rough old game. Cameron presides over a parliamentary party whose backbenchers (those who bothered to stay) laughed and jeered their way through the bedroom tax debate as opposition MPs gave examples of the distress being caused to disabled constituents. The issue is more important than one man and his personal circumstances.

None of his political opponents, as far as I know, have said 'You had a disabled son so how could you...' or criticised him for mentioning Ivan. It is always Cameron who chooses to do so. The debate, in my opinion, would be better served if he did not.

Yarp · 16/10/2014 20:06

The comparison between the McCann threads and the DC one is risible, frankly.

thereturnofshoesy · 16/10/2014 22:13

so what is the outcome??
are campaigns and web chats more important than debate.
as the next election gets nearer, will we be able to debate the government policys?

Twentythree9teen · 17/10/2014 02:42

I think Mumsnet have handled this very badly. First Rowan very badly indeed and now Justine by not being clear.

This argument was made earlier:

> it's just not on to accuse a bereaved parent of milking their loss

When that person is the PM, and he chooses to bring it up himself, it's on. It's 100% completely on. That's what democracy is.

The Mumsnet argument that they won't be able to campaign if they let even one poster accuse him of that is despicable. That's not what democracy is.

I hereby accuse him of cynically using his son's death to shut down debate; I also accuse him of cynically using his son's death to get votes.

So, will you delete that or not?

Romeyroo · 17/10/2014 06:23

Thank you for posting the Hansard quote, edam. I was only aware of the headlines on what Freud (I think) said as have been busy. I think clearly the point in the extract quoted, that Miliband is making, is that a member of the government should not be making comments like that, far less be in charge of policies which affect members of the public he does not value.

Cameron makes clear that these are not the views of the government, wholly side-stepping the question, because Freud, as I understand it, the welfare reform minister, IS part of the government, by then referring to his experience of caring for disabled people. Nobody is lecturing him on that, somebody is asking a very valid question as to whether a member of his government should be making such comments, and remain in post. That question is not answered.

That much is clear. If I believe this is a calculated action, rather than a genuine conflation of his experience of caring, in privileged circumstances, with the experiences of many disabled people, who are having benefits cut and face apparently the threat of having their labour devalued, is that okay because I state that it is my opinion.

FWIW, it is further my opinion that a question about the value of disabled people's labour IS a question about the economy and not about caring for the disabled who, for whatever reason, are unable to work. In other words, his experience is not relevant. I have actually quite severely disabled colleagues who contribute greatly to the intellectual life and culture of my workplace. In my opinion, Mr Cameron and his welfare minister are showing that they have a very narrow view of disability and of the ways in which a diverse workforce can be a more creative one.

I haven't read the deleted posts or indeed the thread, but surely, if an argument is about political debate rather than name-calling, then it should stand. IMO calling someone either an arse or an evil cunt is name-calling, it is not conducive to debate. In other words, if someone said a public figure was just a , that is clearly deletable. If someone refers in quite concrete terms to efforts to close down political debate amongst elected representatives of the people, then if we live in a democracy, that should be open to discussion.

The confounding factor is the inference to DCs son, and the experience of loss. The question is why people know quite so much about what is a very private matter, and why it came into the discussion about what the welfare minister said at all. In the nicest possible way, the loss of a child has no bearing on the value of disabled people in the labour market or to society more generally. If DC cannot see that, then one might seriously question his position.

JustineMumsnet · 17/10/2014 09:48

@Twentythree9teen

I think Mumsnet have handled this very badly. First Rowan very badly indeed and now Justine by not being clear.

This argument was made earlier:

> it's just not on to accuse a bereaved parent of milking their loss

When that person is the PM, and he chooses to bring it up himself, it's on. It's 100% completely on. That's what democracy is.

The Mumsnet argument that they won't be able to campaign if they let even one poster accuse him of that is despicable. That's not what democracy is.

I hereby accuse him of cynically using his son's death to shut down debate; I also accuse him of cynically using his son's death to get votes.

So, will you delete that or not?

No, we won't delete that Twentythree9teen - as I said right at the start of the thread, we were over-enthusiastic on the deletions on this issue on the other thread and people have made good arguments here explaining why your opinion is a valid one to hold (though some may disagree with it).

That said, there is a line which I believe we need to draw. I think it's right that we delete the really rude/vicious stuff about our elected representatives (of all political persuasion obviously) - the DC is c* type thing - and I believe we will struggle to be taken seriously/ get these people on for webchats if we don't.

We simply cannot be entirely prescriptive about what we will and won't delete on this score - this is the grey area I was talking about - as it comes down to context, level of aggression etc. and I believe you would want moderators to take all that into account and not just knee-jerk delete things according to a list of words?

This discussion has been really useful - thanks HoneyDragon for starting it and to everyone who's taken the trouble to contribute thoughts.

I'm sorry to those who believe we've handled all this badly but of course we're not perfect (far from it) and moderation is a nuanced business. The way we moderate the site has always been/ will always be up for discussion and argument and of course we will make mistakes - over time that's how our guidelines/mod policy has evolved. We very much see it as a collaborative effort rather than as MNHQ issuing dictats.

So thanks again everyone for your input and please do add further thoughts - we are watching.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 17/10/2014 09:56

Can you explain why a thread title

'Some disabled people not worth the minimum wage" has been allowed to stand, Justine.

Have reported and others apart from me found it upsetting.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 17/10/2014 09:58

It's another thread but relevant here I think.

GilesGirl · 17/10/2014 10:11

Huh. I thought Mumsnet prided themselves on not being a moderated site.

Has that changed?

JustineMumsnet · 17/10/2014 10:28

@FanjoForTheMammaries

Can you explain why a thread title

'Some disabled people not worth the minimum wage" has been allowed to stand, Justine.

Have reported and others apart from me found it upsetting.

Hi Fanjo - obviously it's an issue in the news and a valid discussion but agree the title isn't great - Rowan tells me the team are in discussion with about how we might edit the title.

JustineMumsnet · 17/10/2014 10:29

@GilesGirl

Huh. I thought Mumsnet prided themselves on not being a moderated site.

Has that changed?

Site has always been moderated GilesGirl - but we try to have as few rules and intervention as possible.

thereturnofshoesy · 17/10/2014 10:56

wow a discussion about an offensive thread title....maybe pretend it has spoilers in it or a trigger and then it will be edited

clareabouts · 17/10/2014 11:34

"I think it's right that we delete the really rude/vicious stuff about our elected representatives (of all political persuasion obviously) - the DC is c* type thing"

Sure, but this absolutely hasn't happened on either thread.

"if an argument is about political debate rather than name-calling, then it should stand"

This, over and over. Really bad error of judgement, I'm afraid.

Romeyroo · 17/10/2014 11:47

Well, the thread title can be edited quite simply if I am getting the context right:

Some disabled people not worth the minimum wage, according to the welfare minister

Just make it clear who said this, rather than it being a statement. What is there to discuss. I imagine it has been changed already, but good grief, the man said it, I have just listeded to the recording to see what exactly he said, and there is no ambiguity in what he said. Simply attribute the statement. Job done.

Owllady · 17/10/2014 11:48

I don't think Mr Cameron's son should be used as a point of discussion either and I don't think his role as a father should be brought into question.

I'm not a conservative but I am the mother of a child who is severely disabled and I had always thought his love for Ivan shone through, whether when he was alive or with his very sad passing.

I do think there is discussion to be had regarding fairness to carers and of course those carers who are financially better off will not share the same domestic burden as those of us on middle to lower incomes. Financial implications still remain though, whatever part of the spectrum you are on.

What I am concerned about though, is since the government came to office we have had everything taken from us.

My care package was reduced to zero and I had to give up my job and still couldn't cope

The incontinence service is AWFUL. I can't even go into reasons on here because of the respect I have for my child

I have seen money pinching, complete vacuuming of services for those with severe disabilities at a local authority level

I'm frightened about the nhs and how my child will be assessed and able to access it

I have had, despite being a full time carer, my child benefit removed even though we are very much middle earners, whilst dual earners without our circumstances who may earn a massive percentage higher have kept it

I think the cuts have been aimed towards the vulnerable at a local authority level but central government should be fully aware of that.

I've most probably rambled on but my life become two fold more difficult in the last few years and it seems to be getting worse. We are the hard working families that you like to pedestal and chuff on about as well. You've took from us, but more importantly you've taken from my daughter who needs strong advocacy to keep her safe.

You bet it makes us angry

thereturnofshoesy · 17/10/2014 11:54

it wouldn't be mentioned, if he didn't bring it up to shut down debate,

Owllady · 17/10/2014 12:02

If we are talking about Lord Freud and David Cameron's response, the reports I read didn't name his son, it could have been just as likely to have been about his father. But I have only read, not listened because the news has been off in this house as I can't bear to hear anything more about the Ebola virus

vezzie · 17/10/2014 12:03

"I think it's right that we delete the really rude/vicious stuff about our elected representatives (of all political persuasion obviously) - the DC is c* type thing"

It's this tone that I find so annoying (tone rather than content, really). I would prefer to see "delete rude/vicious stuff about all individuals". Maybe this is actually what you mean in practice, I don't know, but the pious reverent tone of "our elected representatives" is really annoying as it implies that they are more deserving of respect than anyone else. In fact I think they are often less deserving of respect than anyone else.*

Unless you are going to take a quasi-feudal view that Our Betters are anointed by God and we must tug our forelocks before them, then let's just apply the same rules to everyone, and say so.

  • on two bases:

1 - they are, as a class, generally more aggressively self-seeking and power-orientated than most people you tend to come across, who tend to be on the whole decent community-minded kind people whom it is fairly easy to accord respect on the grounds of their general decency

2 - they exist in a particular relationship to us, the electorate, where they are seeking to gain more power from us and over us, and it is our duty to interrogate what sort of people they are and what they are likely to do with any power they gain through us. We do not have this duty to interrogate the decency and intentions of every Tom, Dick or Sally we come across. It's not just ok to perform this interrogation of politicians (whose salaries we pay, don't forget). It is a duty, an ethical responsibility.

Romeyroo · 17/10/2014 12:33

If we are talking about Lord Freud and David Cameron's response, the reports I read didn't name his son, it could have been just as likely to have been about his father.

Neither are relevant though, because the question was about whether a Minister who had made dispagaring comments about the value of disabled people in the workforce, and suggested that it might be possible to employ them for below minimum wage, should remain in office.

Mr Cameron's experiences of caring for either his son or his father are not relevant to the question.

Owllady · 17/10/2014 14:32

Yes, I completely agree with you.

edamsavestheday · 18/10/2014 09:29

Thanks Romey but it was Hakluyt who found it and posted on the other thread, I just copied it here (I'd posted the BBC Parliament summary). :-)

thereturnofshoesy · 19/10/2014 22:30

how sad that this thread has now dropped down, and no real answer.
you can use "rapey" in a thread,. and that is fine if someone pulls you on itHmm
but slag off the PM and post gone......odd

Swipe left for the next trending thread