Your views on getting dads more engaged and other questions....

[KatieMumsnet]

Hi there

MNHQ have been asked to join the Royal College of Midwives, on a panel at the party conferences to discuss what can be done to get dads more involved in their children's lives (always excepting those dads who do their fair share or more already, of course)

In preparation we’d love to hear your views

Do you feel that current policies around maternity leave, paternity leave, work, childcare etc assume, and therefore usually lead to women adopting the primary caregiver roles for children? If so, what do you think about this?

How involved would you say your DCs' dad is in their daily lives, and how much support did he give you during pregnancy and birth? Were you happy with this level? Is more support always a good thing?

If you think your DC's dad could do more to get involved with your DC's lives, what would make the difference and encourage him? Is this different depending on the age of your child?

If you're separated are you happy with how engaged your child's dad is?

Shared Parental Leave is introduced in April 2015? Are you likely to use this policy? What do you think of it generally?

*From 2015 parents will be eligible for Shared Parental Leave during their child’s first year. So, if parents want to, after a period of at least two weeks that has to be taken by the mother, the remaining entitlement can now be shared between parents.

The panel is primarily looking at the role of dads, but we'd welcome the perspective of any lesbian couples, either about your own relationships or how you involve the biological father, if he is around in the family's life.

Thanks in advance for your input.

MNHQ

I agree that you should be asking men why they don't want to help more. But I think there are several things which would help - workplaces should assume that anyone who is a parent may well request flexible working/require short notice leave for emergencies etc. Managers need to ensure they set a good example, so ensuring male colleagues know they are allowed to do this, and by also setting a good example. For example I am a senior manager, when DS is ill we split the time evenly (at great cost to DH who is a company director and the business suffers when he's not there as it's small). When, on the 2nd day of illness people say 'oh he's better then' I say, no it's DH's turn to look after him today. I think for some families it doesn't even enter their heads that they could spread the load a bit more evenly.

I think as well, education about parental responsibility needs to start at school - teach boys and girls about the implications of being a parent, and their responsibilities - financial, emotional etc. and lay it on that a child is 50% of both people's responsibility.

As an example -- my DH is absolutely equally engaged in our DC's life, he's a terrific dad. We are completely equal when it comes to parenting, in terms of time spent and capabilities, etc.

The only real explanation for this is that he wants it to be this way.

We do not have any special advantages -- we are low income, our jobs are often inflexible and so on. It's turned out this way purely because DH wanted it to.

So while there are definitely reforms that would help, what you really need to do is talk to men and try to find out what sort of social/mental barriers there are.

I think shared leave is rubbish. The woman ought to have the full maternity leave, she is recovering from birth etc.

Dads ought to have a period of time in addition to the mum's maternity leave.

And I echo pps in asking why is it up to women to encourage dads to engage?

Agree with other posters that ultimately this is for the men to sort out. I work in Children's Centre and fathers are identified as a 'most excluded group'. And yes, there have been talk of bacon sandwiches and football sessions on a Saturday morning - stereotypes ahoy! I do find it sad that so many fathers don't seem to want to get involved in what their children are enjoying and learning so much from.

I'm firmly in favour of increasing parental leave but I don't think it will happen until fathers start demanding it. Like so much to do with the home and children, this is seen as yet another women's issue to sort out.

I also think it's not something women can fix on behalf of men.

DP is self employed so shared parental leave would have been ruinous if we'd taken it but, obviously, for couples with a self employed mother and employed father it would be good if leave could be shared.

When I went on my first maternity leave I was very naive. I had no idea how much it would fuck up my career and the biggest obstacle to getting back on track was the cost of childcare. If childcare costs hadn't eclipsed my salary (I have a small gap between my eldest 2) then I would have gone back to work much earlier and DP would have taken up some of the slack.

It's such an easy trap to fall into. One of you has to give up work for a bit, and it may as well be the woman as she is pg and earns less anyway (usually) and before you know it you have the choice of being a SAHM or working but being finically worse off due to childcare costs and you are doing everything for the dcs because your DP works and you don't then yu are blamed for his lack of 'engagement'

Equal pay would be nice, then we could get rid of the 'DP earned more' argument.

Dreamingbohemian - your post is really interesting, as it says an awful lot about what your DH wants/wanted - but nothing about what you want. Are your views the same as his?

Generally, the feeeling on here is that men aren't as involved as they could be due to social barriers/prejudices/recalcitrant employers. But in many, many cases their involvement is less than that of their (female) partner because they both want it that way. For every couple who would like to share childcare and earn the same as one another, there is a couple where both parties are happy for the woman to look after the children (and earn nothing) while the man earns the salary. I think that's a major factor in any discussion about why fathers are (often) less involved as parents than mothers are.

My DH is very involved in our DCs lives but only because I've undone a lifetime's worth of conditioning that told him childrearing was women's work that was beneath him and nothing must interfere with him being Important in his Important Real Job.

Both men and women honestly believe that it is acceptable for the mother never to have a single full night of sleep because she is on maternity leave. So, once she becomes a mother, the woman forfeits her right to a basic human need - sleep - while the man who is Oh So Important gets his Important sleep so he can do Important things because clearly all the woman does is sit on her arse - babies don't need any looking after do they? When you have that level of disregard for a person's needs then deeper questions need to be asked than just "how can we get them to play more?"

The fact is, the status quo benefits men hugely. In order to have children all they have to do is have an orgasm in the right place at the right time. Society has it structured so that from there on in the result is the woman's problem. The man can carry on with no physical disadvantages, no affect on his career, no sleepless nights, and still be considered fantastic if he happens to go to Tesco or the park with their child in tow now and again. He gets all the advantages of a family with none of the disadvantages - why change that?

I don't think that is the general feeling. I think the general feeling is that early years parenting is hard and often thankless and you can genuinely feel as though it steals your identity a bit. I don't think it's hard to extrapolate why men are less involved as a group - historically, they have the choice and women do not. In the modern day, men still tend to make the choice and women have to pick up the slack because nobody else will do it. It's very very rare that women take a lesser role and don't do any of the involved work - reading with children, changing nappies, knowing what they are likely to eat, shopping, meal planning (or just choosing on the day), cooking. Potty training, medical appointments, taking sick days from work when children are ill, knowing which school or friend or activity events are coming up and making sure the relevant thing gets done. Noticing when behaviour may indicate different issues (and not just a behaviour issue/personality trait) and trying to get to the bottom of that. Buying new clothes, doing the laundry, arranging for new clothes when the old ones are outgrown. Deciding on an appropriate bedtime and helping that bedtime to happen. Making sure teeth and hair are brushed, cream and medications are taken, bodies are clean. Setting up and maintaining or liasing with childcare and/or education arrangements, arranging birthday parties.

Plenty of dads do these things, of course, but I've never come across a family where the dad does ALL of these things and the mum does none or hardly any, whereas I know of quite a few where the dad doesn't have a clue about most of these things and the mum does all or 80+% of them.

The bottom line is that somebody has to look after children and unless you earn enough and have space for a live in nanny, that has to be one or both of the parents, even when both parents work.

If it is a simple choice then why is it so weighted? There's nothing wrong with that choice but if it was as simple as that then surely we'd see equal numbers of families with a working mother and SAHF?

Plus it's very very possible for parents to be involved while they are working. It's about the things that they do with their children when not working, not about choosing to be the primary carer.

So true cailin. You see it on here all the time - even highly abusive men described as 'a fantastic dad' because they occasionally do bath time or play with Lego or take the child to the park i.e. all the fun stuff, none of the tedious stuff. All men have to do is just show their faces occasionally to get a Father of the Year award in some people's minds. And the poor mother who, as you say, may be delusional with sleep deprivation and plagued with illnesses she just can't shake because she's so run down, has to endure being told how 'lucky' she is. Like sleep deprivation and looking after somebody else's needs for every second of every day and night is no big deal for women. Ugh.

Do you know what BertieBotts? I do ALL that.

And I (when not on ML) work FT in a senior role.

And I am the (not insignificantly) higher earner.

And I am a feminist.

And I think I'm really lucky to have such an equal partner who is involved with his kids' lives and contributes to the housework. (And compared to most other men we know, he is)

Huh.

Musicalia -- that's an interesting point. I didn't mention my wants because for me personally it feels obvious that equally shared parenting is a great setup, but it's true that not everyone feels that way.

I do think that even women who want to be the SAHP and primary carer must get frustrated though if their partner can't or won't take care of his own DC for more than a hour, if she can never go out or do anything because DH doesn't know how to put the kids to bed, etc. Working FT doesn't mean you can't be engaged with your DC, but I think a lot of men hide behind that to escape domestic drudgery, as they see it.

And I totally agree with cailin that the bottom line is that the status quo benefits men and so there is no real incentive for wholesale change.

Why are the RCM even taking part in this? Shouldn't they be focused on delivering maternity services and looking after their members?

It's not their job to run around after the poor men who can't be bothered to look after their own children any more than it is ours.

All that these panels will achieve is that they will end up listing various spurious "perceived barriers" to men doing childcare, none of which have anything to do with the root cause, which is that men who don't do childcare see themselves as above domestic drudgery, and will palm it off on women where society lets them get away with that.

Others are right, the onus should definitely NOT be on women to "encourage" men to be involved and engaged. There's something about the way that sentence is phrased which is simply just reinforcing the very idea they are claiming to be questioning.

Do you feel that current policies around maternity leave, paternity leave, work, childcare etc assume, and therefore usually lead to women adopting the primary caregiver roles for children? If so, what do you think about this?
To a degree, yes. Shared parental leave is very new, and I can imagine many men not feeling comfortable in their workplace asking to take X months off. It is a start, at least. But the thing that is very hard to get over is the biological fact that if woman is breastfeeding, it is harder for her to share that parental leave.

How involved would you say your DCs' dad is in their daily lives, and how much support did he give you during pregnancy and birth? Were you happy with this level? Is more support always a good thing?
I am coming from a different perspective to many posters, probably, as DP does more 'childcare' (for lack of a better phrase) than I do most weeks.
He was a bit rubbish during pregnancy though He fell into that trap that I hear other partners on MN doing, of not quite finding it all real until the baby came. But that was a first pregnancy, I can imagine he will be much more helpful in any other pregnancies.

OK I'm going to answer the actual questions since I've just given a general opinion so far.

Do you feel that current policies around maternity leave, paternity leave, work, childcare etc assume, and therefore usually lead to women adopting the primary caregiver roles for children? If so, what do you think about this?
I don't think it's only policy related. I think there's a heavy societal, cultural and historical bias which leads to the less common options (father being the stay at home parent, or both parents dropping hours in order to share childcare) not really being considered as an option in the first place. The only real policy which is gendered currently is maternity/paternity leave isn't it? Childcare can be accessed by either parent as long as the child is living with them and theoretically both genders of parent can ask for time off or flexible working for childcare reasons.

One thing I think is odd (which isn't gendered) is that parents can't take sick days when their child is sick. I didn't realise but in other countries this is usually covered by health insurance. In the UK it's not counted as sick leave, usually unpaid leave or you have to take holiday.

How involved would you say your DCs' dad is in their daily lives
My DC's father has not seen him for four years. So not involved at all. His stepfather, on the other hand, is just as involved as I am except that he works more hours than me so I do more childcare during these hours. But when he is here it very much feels 50/50.

and how much support did he give you during pregnancy and birth?
XP was not supportive during pregnancy at all, didn't get it in the slightest, used to leave me all day with no food or money, etc. He was great during the birth but that was about it. (DH, N/A)

Were you happy with this level? Is more support always a good thing?
No, clearly not! I feel like I should have been emotionally supported. But that was his entire personality. Yes I think more support is always a good thing, unless somebody is being interfering (but then that's not really support, is it?)

If you think your DC's dad could do more to get involved with your DC's lives, what would make the difference and encourage him? Is this different depending on the age of your child?
Honestly I don't think anybody could encourage XP to be involved with DS, and quite frankly the idea of him being involved because of some external incentive really doesn't sit right with me. I did lots to encourage and help him to bond with his child as a newborn - skin to skin, expressing so he could feed, getting them to bath together, giving him lots of chances to care for him alone. It didn't make the difference once the onus was on him. I don't think the age of the child matters.

With DH, one thing I think has helped is that I work some evenings and mornings a week. So at least once a week he puts DS to bed, finishes his tea, takes him to school in the mornings. I think he would have done this anyway but I do like the fact that he's used to putting him to bed etc so if I want to go out, or even if I theoretically went away for a weekend he doesn't panic or worry about it, it's no big deal. So I do think it's important to share tasks so that both parents are happy and confident doing them. Perhaps not breastfeeding But pretty much everything else.

If you're separated are you happy with how engaged your child's dad is?
Obviously I'm not thrilled, but I'm happier that it's a clean split than being back and forth. I don't think stopping and starting contact is good for children.

Shared Parental Leave is introduced in April 2015? Are you likely to use this policy? What do you think of it generally?
We're not in the UK so won't have the chance to use it but we have similar legislation where we are and we think it's a good idea and plan to use it. I'll take 6 months, with DH probably on reduced hours and then DH takes 6 months while I go back part time. I think it's a really good idea and if fathers have even a short time of properly being the parent who is responsible for all of the small and mundane tasks and being cut off effectively from the "adult" world it both brings confidence so they're more likely to take on more of a share of the caring etc generally, and it also brings an understanding of what has to be done (so they think to do it without being asked or told) and what it's like to be in this role (more sympathy, emotional support, more likely to know what is helpful, to offer helpful practical support.)

"Do you know what BertieBotts? I do ALL that."

But do you do it backwards and in high heels?

It's endemic though isn't it? We start with gender identity before birth these days, colour schemes, clothes, assigning different behaviours.

From the very beginning by stereotype girls are quiet, pretty and nurturing, boys are rough and tumble. They get called "lil princess" and "lil man".

Jobs are still very gender orientated. Labourers are men. Primary school teachers are women.

Society sees raising children as the womens job, to start because of biology (breastfeeding, pregnancy and birth obviously), but later because of stereotyping. In the workplace if a woman has children, its accepted they might need time off for DC illness, or want to go part time, or have a career break. A man working on a building site is not going to be taken seriously if he wants 6 months paternity leave, or to work 3 days a week, or to finish at 3pm for the school run.

Until employers and society start seeing males as able to parent the same way a female can (excepting the physical), men are never going to be able to fill that role. Many families can't risk losing a wage because their employer doesn't see a man as committed to his work if he takes time off for family.

Also extending to equality of pay- if women are paid less for the same roles, then it makes financial sense for females to take the time off. Also many young women are hired with the expectation that they'll leave to have DC, so aren't taken as seriously, or given the same career opportunities.

So I do think it is our business. If we fight for equality in the workplace, fight for shared parental leave so our careers aren't affected when we give birth, then men stepping away from the "breadwinner" role is going to be a viable option.

Men just need to buck the fuck up (NAMALT, obvs.)

I don't understand the question or why RCMW are involved.

I am a Dad and the RCMW are not relevant to the question. Well there members are often there at the birth obviously but after that it pretty much not really up to them to comment.

It sounds like a load of political tripe served up for the election to get the 'wimmins' vote. Really MN don't get drawn in to this.

Ha! Hakluyt

Okay, in an attempt to be more helpful discussed it with DH.

Does he think current setup assumes women will be childcarers, yes. Is this bad, yes.

Do I want him to be more involved, not really I think we have a pretty decent balance. Tends to get better once I stop breastfeeding for us, because he is better at doing the physical stuff than the mental organisation/wifework type stuff.

How to get men more involved. Who knows they're either interested or they aren't!

Would we use shared leave in the future? No. Financially we couldn't manage the drop in income from loosing dh's wage. The policy doesn't do anything about the gender paygap so there will be tonnes of families out there who won't be able to afford to do this.

"Until employers and society start seeing males as able to parent the same way a female can (excepting the physical), men are never going to be able to fill that role."

And that is not going to happen until men campaign for it.

I don't understand why the RCMW are involved. MW have a very small role in the life of a child. Some mothers are sent home after 6 hours and may only see a MW a couple more times.

What do MW know about dads?

MNHQ have been asked to join the Royal College of Midwives, on a panel at the party conferences to discuss what can be done to get dads more involved in their children's lives

The idea that this is women's responsibility is offensive.

"In preparation we'd love to hear your views" - automatically assuming "you're" a woman.
Calling a site "mumsnet".
So much about being a primary carer AND male is skewed this way - I feed ds3 food which actually says "be the best mum you can be" and attend daytime musical groups where signs and wording are always along the lines of "mummies and carers bring their little ones to the front" etc.
Dads who are engaged are minimised through the language that everyone - male and female, and mumsnet admins - use, and this is another example of this.