Proposed new alternative to DfE school league tables: your thoughts?

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello,

We've been approached about a new initiative which is being launched by the two head teachers’ unions (ASCL and NAHT), United Learning and PiXL to see whether we would like to work with them on the development of a set of alternative performance measures for schools, and as ever we'd like to know what you think.

They say: 'what we want to do is produce performance tables that reflect all the aspects of a school that parents are interested in, not just its exam results.'

For this autumn, their tables will be based on GCSE results data, uploaded by schools themselves to this site but earlier than the government-released figures. In years to come, the idea is to add extra measures, in an attempt to give parents information about things like curriculum breadth, extra-curricular activities, facilities, and children's personal development - all things that those involved believe are not adequately conveyed by DfE data as it stands.

As part of this process, the people behind the project would like to know what MNers think: about the idea of alternative performance tables generally, about what specific and additional measures (if any) you'd like to see included as the tables develop, and about whether you think it would be a good idea for Mumsnet to be one of the ways that the project interacts with parents and seeks their views over the next few years.

So, over to you! Any thoughts and input welcome.

Thanks
MNHQ

Get things right for children with SEN and you get things right for ALL children.

I'd like to see number of hours of children with SEN actually IN the classroom being taught by the teacher, with or without a TA supporting.

I'd also like to see proper evaluation of interventions for children with SEN. Too often 'nurture groups' are little more than respite for the class teacher and too generalist if in their approach that benefitting from them is a matter of potluck.

Tomato my dc are and have been taught French,PE,art and RE weekly by an assistant who doesn't have a degree and clearly hates teaching.All dread her lessons as do their friends.

Sorry if I can't take my kids out during term time I want every second to count,no second rate lessons and information as,when and why my dc aren't being taught by their teacher.

The hours the TAs take over often seem to go well over PPA time.There may well be valid reasons but perhaps parents could be informed and TA teaching hours recorded.

Whole class teaching hours

Average number of children per class across KS3/4/5, inc max number.

Link to schools own GCSE and A2 results, by subject, and number achieving each grade.

Discipline - number of internal exclusions across the year groups.(probably too controversial, but something that gives you an objective measure of discipline/ behaviour in the school)

Extra curric - not sport - opportunities across the year, eg annual drama production open to all in years 7-11 etc.

As an aside how do you get the data for satisfaction?

If it were part of the published school league table or were asked as part of the annual "Fill this form in once a year to allow your child to go on trips" forms, there would be more replies. Besides, the satisfaction rates could be published with a % response rate.

Why are folk so anti-PIXL? The only controversy I can find out about them is entering GCSE+iGCSE which doesn't bother me personally. Is there something else posters dislike them for?

Yes I guess you could but are parents going to be honest if they know their teachers and headteacher will be scrutinising their answers?

Also if the results are dire are heads really going to put the correct data online for Ofsted to have a little perusal prior to their next visit?

Oh dear god no. League tables as they are are already destroying education by creating gaming of the system in order to improve position and hideous pressure being put on both students and staff. You already have parents on here complaining about reduced choice for their kids at GCSE in order to fit them into an Ebacc measure.

If teacher attendance is reported what do you think will happen? Exceptional pressure on teachers not to take sick leave (and it's bad enough as it is).
If incidents of bullying are reported then actual incidents of bullying will be renamed 'friendship issues' and not dealt with properly so they don't register on the system.
Police being called to school being reported becomes police not being called even for serious incidents.

A lot of parent satisfaction stuff is already covered by Ofsted but questionnaire return is an issue with usually only people with issues doing so, skewing the sample.

Some proposed measures are also problematic. Unqualified teacher percentage - do you mean QTS? In which case this might be high for an independent school and be fine, high for a school that hires qualified teachers from abroad and be fine or high because the school hires anyone they can get. Teachers with a degree in their subject - how related does their subject have to be? We had a brilliant maths teacher with a degree in psychology, which had a high maths content. Would that count? I have a friend who teaches physics a-level well, who did an Institute of Physics course as he's a biologist. Would that count? If you're looking at PGCE subject then would he count anyway as his PGCE is in Science?

Staff turnover would be interesting but also an issue as small schools have a handful of teachers and one leaving would be a large percentage. Huge schools could lose loads of teachers without it being that high.

Discipline - number of internal exclusions across the year groups.(probably too controversial, but something that gives you an objective measure of discipline/ behaviour in the school)

How is this an objective measure? Is a high number of internal isolations a good or bad thing? As a teacher I would be wary of a school that had few as rather than suggesting good behaviour to me, it would suggest weak leadership and teachers being left to deal with poor behaviour on their own.

I did say it might not be the best measure!
just trying to suggest some objective measure that helps a parent understand whether a school has generally good or poor behaviour in the class.

Please feel free to suggest a better measure. I don't work in education.
But if my child's education is likely to be disrupted by poor behaviour from others, then I would like to know.

It is impossible to quantify as so much depends on the individual teachers and classes. My school has Ofsted outstanding behaviour but if you are a top set kid you'll have a very different school experience to a bottom set one. The kids also do lessons at KS3 in their tutor groups and some are lovely and some not so much.

As a measure of the general behaviour in the school I'd want to know instances of staff being assaulted or sworn at by kids. I know at my school it's very rare and that at other schools it's a daily occurrence. But if you publicly report those figures, they'll go down even though the actual instances might not.

The government are introducing new 'league tables' from Sept 2016. They'll provide information on:

"average GCSE grade",

"Progress since GCSEs expressed compared to other students with same KS2 results - expressed as +0.5 showing that students do half a grade better than similar students at other schools",

Results & progress in maths

Results & progress in English.

They will only include students first attempt at a subject (thus trying to discourage early entry with lots of resits). The official data typically comes out in January and I've heard nothing to suggest that this will change.

These alternative tables have the big advantage of coming out in September which is clearly a big plus for parents.

The other big difference is that this alternative will use "best result" so schools who go for early entry and then resit the next year (ie. 2 chances) will be better off in these alternative tables.

The cynic in me notes that PiXL are involved in the new tables. They have a reputation (fairly or unfairly?) for working with schools to improve results through some "creative" entry policies to exams.

Link to schools own GCSE and A2 results, by subject, and number achieving each grade.

Absolutely. The devil is in the detail.

I would also like access to several years' data so you can see trends.

Anything to do with trends of raw results will give a false impression of a school. For example our A*-B went up by 5% in this years A level results - but the cohort was stronger than last years and really that increase was just about "par" for this year group whereas last years results were very good.

Don;t assume, even in a large school, that cohorts are roughly the same from year to year. We had a really weak year group a few years ago and their GCSE results were 10% lower than the year before - but once their KS2 results (ie our starting points) were factored in they were some of the best results we had ever had.

It's about "value added" really. Some "good schools" get by on the fact they have a strong intake and just coast along whereas some "weak schools" actually add much more value to their students (able and less able).

Creativity. Arts awards - gold/silver etc

Can there be more than one table? Say one shows academic results. One shows staff turnover and other things. I just wonder if too many different types of data to be analysed in one table things will get complicated and confused.

tables only go so far currently. thinking of primary school. one of my children tested gifted and there is no indication of how well they do getting those children learning at their level. anothe of my children has SEN and there is no indication on the tables about how well these children are supported either.

the tables do not take into account the value addedness of the school... they only test at the end of year two and use that. there has been three-four years of work by infant teachers.

at secondary school I would like to know whether there is bullying, whether children feel safe how children are developed outside of the curriculum, how schools do in their specialist areas etc.

sometimes there are blips in the tables, especially in smaller schools, if say there is a year with higher educational needs etc. information from previous years is helpful to balance out the picture.

A list of reliable after school clubs would be useful for working parents. Knowing that a club was definitely on until a specified time (not cancelled last minute due to department meeting) would allow for me staying later at work and scheduling lifts.

I understand why the head teachers want to promote what else goes on in school. Often it's the clubs and other stuff that you remember about school and help you stand out at interview.

I know of one family who had to 'go private' although they got their children into their preferred non-catchment academy. The academy had promised all sorts of after school activities but they never materialised so the children would have been left for 90mins for the days both parents worked with nothing to do at the school (with no supervision).

Teachers running after school clubs do so voluntarily and unpaid therefore they can't be guaranteed.

If you want guaranteed after school care, you have to pay for it. Clubs are not childcare.

All I want is for my children to achieve the best possible results they can- which clearly is through having an enthusiastic and qualified teacher in the classroom and interesting lessons. I want them to be happy in their school too.

How do you measure this? It's not a standard measurement. A pupil that may only get an E grade being brought up to a C grade doesn't look much on the current charts.

There is a marked behavioural difference from students in the two comps that serve my little suburb. The local comp, now an academy are loud, sweary, and generally unruly (but fine walking down my street in smaller groups of less than 5) whereas walking in the other direction are swarthes of catholic comp students very eloquent, never heard them swear, well mannered and well behaved (no veering off the kerb on scooters to test oncoming cars reactions). This gives me an idea of the two schools expectations from an outsiders point of view.

I don't hold much with the current system.

noblegiraffe I have worked in schools with both paid and unpaid after school clubs running - and both suffered from not being reliable.
Homework clubs run by support staff are usually a good bet though.

Just thinking at primary level. What about classroom management style? Does a school believe in ability sets or mixed abilities teaching? How good does a school narrow the gaps between pupils of different abilities? What is % of pupils exceed the progression rate or not to have the progression rate at all.
I view the current progression % is more a burden then help for the late bloomers or many pupils in general. As if a child reached 2c or below at ks1 then s/he is targeted to reach 4c or below it will still regard as 100% progression.

I'm not that keen on teachers being forced to run clubs whatever.Teaching is knackering and I frankly would rather my kid's teacher was planning or re-charging after school in order to be fully refreshed for the next day.

Lesson quality is my priority not add on unnecessary extras because some parents have childcare issues.

Fine if they want to run a club but being forces into it because of some stupid league table completion err no thanks.And frankly if schools feel the need to cancel clubs for meetings,planning and events all power to them.The former are far more important than childcare issues.If you need reliability get yourself a childminder or some other form of childcare.

Competition

Thank you very much for all your thoughts. We'll have a good read and come back to you.