Can we have a proper 'woo' topic?

[IndigoBarbie]

Dear MNHQ, I fully believe in freedom of speech and experiences, and as such I go out of my way to assist those who are asking more angelic/psychic etc questions, since this is my real life in a nutshell. Getting sooooo fed up of threads becoming all about others who don't believe and blatantly attacking those of us on thread who want to actively discuss and share and I think a lovely new topic of 'woo' or something you feel is an appropriate title could be provided for us to have proper sharings and discussions.

I'm going to pick you up on your argument, too, Dione, I'm afraid. I used to murmur quiet pleasantries to woo proponents, even understanding why they believe what they do and, sometimes, supporting them. Then a bunch of shit happened to me, which was entirely human-generated and which I was asked to blame on metaphysical causes. This opened my eyes VERY widely to the importance of truth, logic & fact as the only defences against gaslighting. Faith is constantly used against its believers as a weapon of control. As I wrote above, fact is spectacular in itself - my words here come not from bitterness, but from the discovery that clarity's far more wonderful than fog. And woo is foggy!

Lady - Since you asked, I don't do TM as I associate it with 'foggy' woo. I do mindfulness mediations several times a day :)

I get that TM does wonders for some people, it's just the way I was taught by the people who taught me ...

There's a danger of doing the "all beliefs are equal" thing here. I think it might have been Manatee who said years ago something that stuck with me, and I paraphrase, "if I said that rain was hamsters weeing in the sky, would you give my beliefs equal validity?"

Don't worry, woo-ers, you'll probably get more people being arsed to comment on this thread than on any dedicated board. FWR was hardly over-run with the site stuff thread participants once the blood was let.

NC for this and flameproof onsie donned.

Firstly, please could the word woo be dropped as it's erm, puerile and derogatory spring to mind for starters. Pick something else that doesn't have such a confrontational connotation.

The situation here whereby some people want to discuss 'otherly' topics and others want to shout them down is pretty prevalent internet-wide

Here's how discussions involving Christians vs Atheists was sorted on one large site which is fairly strictly moderated.
"Acceptable civil discussion includes explaining your own beliefs, but respectfully accepting that others have the right to make up their own minds and arrive at their own beliefs for themselves. Discussing those differences is fine too, as long as it is not done in a patronising, insulting, demeaning, or otherwise uncivil manner. And it is unacceptable to insist that your own personal beliefs and interpretations are incontrovertible fact and that those with other beliefs and interpretations are clearly wrong/stupid/evil/etc."
further info here
boards.fool.co.uk/board-reopened-please-read-12811345.aspx

Okay, so bear with..

Extrapolating that attitude towards discussion of 'otherly' topics and to avoid the need for strict moderation, here's an idea.

There is a vast difference between facts and opinions/beliefs. Clearly stating which is which can save all of the nastiness and thread-derailing usually seen in these types of discussions.

e.g. If you said 'I found an angel-feather' it instantly pushes all the buttons on the 'claimed as fact'-obsessed brigade and they can't wait to tell you birds have feathers and angels aren't real, because the way you worded your statement inferred to them that you stated a fact. And they'll argue about it forever how you shouldn't make claims, there's no evidence, ad infinitum.

However, if you'd said 'I found a feather today, I choose to believe /it's my opinion that it's an angel's/it shows an angelic influence" etc. then said brigade have nothing to argue about. You have clearly stated a belief or opinion, you have not claimed anything is a universal truth which they must challenge, you have not said it's a fact so they cannot challenge you to provide evidence.

If everyone could just try that very simple approach, then it's my opinion that discussions of 'otherly' subjects could take place as long as it was made crystal clear that what was being said was opinion, belief or as is indeed now is the case for Mindfulness, verifiable fact.

What is "my nonsense" Unreal? What have I asked you to believe that causes you anxiety?

Third way it think the word woo sums it up very well.

Not answering for Unreal, but I feel anxious about so many people's willingness to believe what is evidently false. This applies to believing everything the Daily Mail says, as much as everything the church or your local psychic says.

Garlic, I am sorry that bad things happened to you. I am sorry that someone made out to you that it was down to something that you didn't believe in. I'm sorry they tried to deflect the blame. That person wasn't me or Indigo or anyone else here, was it?

nope, still calling it woo.

Oh, definitely, a woo topic is a fantastic idea.

Then I can hide it.

Some of the beliefs are puerile. I think 'woo' is apt.

I've never particularly seen the need for a dedicated topic for woo-sters.

But I'd join in.

There's a lot of puerile stuff around on MN. I want to crash onto every thread asking me and the MN masses what brand of pushchair to buy and scream "who fucking cares?" but I don't. I find it hard to believe that there is thread after thread, year after year about Eastenders and god forbid anyone post the storyline before it's been on telly.

Puerile is everywhere. like angels

Woo is the name of all that stuff on MN.

If we had a topic for fanjos, the topic would be called Fanjos, not Vaginas.

Third - The God debate is different fan woo debate, because there is no way to know whether there is a God.

Woo topics, however, are generally demonstrably false. Homeopathy doesn't work - proven through many studies - and it can't work because it's theory makes no sense, for example. It's not a question of "I believe this, you believe that, let's be respectful of each other's beliefs" etc.

Have I got this straight? An OP who states on another thread that she makes money from charging people for 'energy healing' and that she can and does use her gifts to 'find missing children' now wants a dedicated topic where this sort of thing can go unchallened?

And MNHQ are considering this? Really???

"woo" is so ill defined though. "I havre fairies at the botom of my garden" may be easy for most to dismiss.

There is a lot of borderline "woo" however that is very difficult to unravel.

Things like accupuncture, meditation/mindfulness, reflexology. Alexander technique, hypnosis, osteopathy,even ritual- a particular interest of mine from a Jungian/anthopological perspective.

Although I am an athiest it would be arrogant from a scientific stance to suggest that we have all the answers. Yes we need to work with hard evidence, but if we are too quick to dismiss all "woo" then we may thrwo a baby out with the bathwater.

well said boreofwhabylon.

Thanks, FFA. I've reported my post so that MNHQ will see it.

I think it's a great idea! Set one up HQ!

Where would alien discussion fit in?

Right, had a think about this at 2am when youngest was trying to talk to me. I think that the problem with having a 'woo' topic as requested by Indigo would be a bad idea so I can't support it in the form that's been discussed. Mainly because every damn thread about it turns inevitably to homeopathy which then gets a little heated , it then gets completely derailed and ditched when those of us who want to talk about the original subject get bored and wander off.
It's an all encompassing subject, so much more than what gets discussed here and can be pretty fascinating to delve into but it almost always ends up in Chat and turns into a bunfight instead of just shared experiences and a chance to ask questions and maybe even learn something about another persons beliefs.
Garlic: anybody who tries to blame you personally for something out if your control is a twat of the highest order and would still be a twat whatever belief system they follow. I despise people like this and unfortunately they can usually be found on some Pagan boards. Most of us avoid them like the plague. Please don't think we're all like that.
This is a bit of a convoluted way of saying I think we should stick to the philosophy boards to discuss certain topics, maybe if more us us 'woo' believers went in their we could keep threads bumped a bit!
Sorry Indigo, I take quite a dim view of anybody using people's beliefs to make money (this is all beliefs, including the Christian church), it sits wrongly with me and the path I follow. I'll stick to the other forum I think.

I think a subject like aliens straddles many areas.

Even ( or especially) the most hardened scientic would suggest that life on alien planets is highly probable. Unlike many religious who would suggest that life on Earth is God given and unique.
So in some ways Aliens are nor "woo" at all.

Alien abduction however is a different thing.

" it would be arrogant from a scientific stance to suggest that we have all the answers"

I don't think anyone is claiming that, but we have many answers.

Where those answers contradict the woo, is it unreasonable to expect people to re-evaluate their convictions on the basis of the evidence?

Acupuncture, for example, has been shown over and over as being no more effective than placebo, and haphazard sticking of needles by people who know nothing of acupuncture is as 'effective' as what is done by professionals. There is little doubt (none, really) that it is pseudoscience, with no physiological mechanism of action.

It would be interesting to talk about meditation, mindfulness, hypnosis - how and why they work. Their effects are well-documented and they are not woo, though.

It would be fantastic if we could talk about the evidence and discuss whether or not some of that "borderline woo" might work or not. The problem is that those discussions never happen because their proponents are not interested in anything other than "this is my belief, it worked for my mum's dog" etc and they would never change their minds even when presented with incontrovertible proof that it doesn't work.

However Cote it would be good to be able to be able to ask questions about how something worked for somebody who has tried it: interestingly you brought up hypnotherapy, not strictly wooish I agree but I'm considering trying it to help me stop smoking. Getting the benefit of someone else's experience would be useful without another poster jumping in with 'it's all shite', which is what usually happens and was my original point way up there somewhere^.

I don't think you can throw acupuncture out the window so easily. It's been practised for centuries and for many many people it does work.

It's widely used in fertility treatments where I came across it.