Can we talk about the giant loophole in the talk guidelines, please?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

At the moment, Talk Guidelines say 'we'll remove posts we consider to contain personal attacks, to break the law and/or to be obscene, racist, sexist, disablist, ageist or homophobic, once they are brought to our attention, we will also delete any posts that we think are just seriously unpleasant.'

That means, if someone posts 'LRD, I really hate you, you men hating looney. You are utterly pathetic,' you will delete as a personal attack. In fact, if I'm lucky and you're feeling generous, you might delete it for disablism too.

If someone posts, on a thread where it is perfectly clear who is intended:
I fucking hate the men hating loonies on here. You are all utterly pathetic, if you truly believe you are equal to men then it can't affect you.

Then you won't delete that. Because it's not a 'personal' attack, and doesn't count under any of the specified exceptions like homophobia or ageism.

I'm getting so tired of seeing this get exploited. It just results in nasty, antagonistic, aggressive threads and I think it drives posters away from MN. Is there any chance the policy could be changed, maybe to include that you'd delete personal attacks aimed at groups when it is obvious which specific MNers are meant?

Does t this fall under the report to help them build a picture?

I agree op.
I rarely visit the feminist boards but I've noticed on the UKIP threads a lot of posts along the lines of 'all UKIP voters are ignorant racists' - which I'm sure shuts down debate for a lot of people - it would be nice if we could be civil to each other so the conversation could continue.

Hm.
I don't know how I feel about this.

I agree that if everybody should adhere to the old chestnut of not saying anything at all if they cannot be nice (I love lively debate and I think it is perfectly possible to vehemently disagree with somebody without becoming personal or rude) there would not be a problem.

However, I'd actually like less deletions because I think horrible vitriol just makes that poster look like the twat they are IMO.
Wrt FWR (on which I mainly lurk and sometimes seethe in the face of obvious stirrers) would ignoring them not be best?? Leave the twattery, ignore and continue whatever conversation is being had?

I don't know.
Gosh, this was a helpful post

love - it might, but I think if it were explicitly on the talk guidelines, people would know to report it. The site is huge and I think people don't report speculatively when it's something that's just rude.

I do think a hide poster button would be the best option. If everyone were going to choose to hide a poster it would make it easier to properly ignore.

I could ignore LRD now (for example! ), but if just one you continued to talk to her I would obligated to keep engaging with her. But if everyone said right, MRA and the majority stopped engaging and you didn't see original comments we wouldn't get so easily derailed.

Hello

Just to follow up, we realised last night (after we posted) that this thread was partly prompted by a particularly egregious generalised attack - we've dealt with that one now.

Tbh our overall thrust with the Talk Guidelines is to get away from specifics where possible and head towards the general, so we're unlikely to add this change. We'd rather consider a post overall - is it making a genuine contribution to the debate? Or is it just plain mean/inflammatory with no other merit?

Or maybe have a limit to how many posts a newbie can make?

remember NEVER to slag off anyone who wears varifocals as they look weird
that, is a personal attack

i dont think Style and beauty would ever have managed years ago

rowan, I'm sorry but I don't follow.

The talk guidelines get away from specifics and head towards the general? But that is what I'm asking for! I'm not asking you to change them so that 'you feminists are mean' becomes a banned insult. I'm suggesting that 'you [group noun denoting obvious group of MNers' are all [insult]' is a personal attack. The fact it's focussed on the general not the specific doesn't make it less personal.

Crossposted - see, eduardo's post isn't what I mean. It's not a hugely nicey-nice statement, but it's not obviously intended to hit out at a specific group of MNers. Whereas 'that lot in S&B are all shallow bitches' (they're not, btw) is hitting out at specific MNers. Anyone who's a regular over there is liable to feel a bit got-at.

We would definitely delete 'that lot in S&B are shallow bitches' - for being plain mean and contributing nothing to a debate

Ok, but rowan, I've reported loads of 'you feminists ...' posts over the years and you have always said you can't delete because they're not personal attacks. It may be partly because you felt the rest of the post was important, but you don't say so.

However, I'd actually like less deletions because I think horrible vitriol just makes that poster look like the twat they are IMO.

I agree. I think that instead, if a poster keeps behaving very badly they need an official warning, then if the continue like that they will be blocked from posting.

I wish that would happen, briar.

I'm just down because IME, it doesn't happen.

i think we ARE shallow.
fwiw

@LRDtheFeministDragon

Ok, but rowan, I've reported loads of 'you feminists ...' posts over the years and you have always said you can't delete because they're not personal attacks. It may be partly because you felt the rest of the post was important, but you don't say so.

Sorry LRD - we will try to be clearer in our responses and explain why we're not taking something down (if we're not)

Surely someone at he has a spreadsheet going

at eduardo.

Thanks, rowan.

Rowan et al

I've just reported A Lot of posts. Sorry for the flurry but I really want you to take a look at a sustained onslaught of, ah, unhelpfulness.

Oh that whole topic is like a honeypot to make trolls surely. You should leave traps there then piss off to Otbt and have real ones there.

Male trolls

Misdirection - oh, I like it, Eduardo

We could also have traps, with radfem keywords as bait

Def. Then have one person on duty each day annoying them while everyone else talks elsewhere

I don't report a lot in FWR. Partially because it's not my manor but partially because I think the regulars do such a job of dealing with it that it is an education. For me, and I hope newer or younger feminists who may wonder how to shut misogynists down. The intelligence, wit and passion of FWR posters, well, you lot know who you are.