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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

getting together information and support for EVERYONE in the child protection system

287 replies

Spero · 21/01/2014 16:50

I am posting here, mainly because I am not sure what I am doing and I don't want to do anything against the rules or contrary to the site ethos.

In a nutshell, a lot of us have been contributing to various threads since before Christmas about the child protection system in the UK and all the controversy that has arisen since the case of Alessandra Pacchieri and the issue of 'forced adoption'.

We have perspectives from every part of the child protection system - there are birth parents, adoptive parents, social workers, lawyers etc and we think it could be a good idea to try to do something to bring us all together, to help people get access to information that is balanced and useful, particularly if they are facing care proceedings or worried they might be.

At the moment, we are thinking a blog could help, with different people providing short posts about their experiences and providing links to other sources that we know are credible and reliable. This could be very valuable for all of us - I am a lawyer for e.g. but I would love to know more about what doctors working in child protection are looking out for, and I would like to get more perspectives from birth parents about what they think is good or bad about the system.

We are also wondering if there could be a separate topic in 'Parenting' - Dealing with child Protection issues or similar, which could link to the blog, once we get if off the ground.

So sorry quite a lot of info there. Trying to précis

  1. We have a lot of untapped knowledge and experience and would like to pull it altogether to provide a good source of reliable and balanced advice
  2. We would like to start a blog, does anyone want to contribute or can think of snappy name?
  3. We would like to use the power of mumsnet to steer people towards our information and provide another platform for discussion and debate
4.What's the best way of going about this?

Any comments, thoughts welcomed.

OP posts:
WestmorlandSausage · 27/01/2014 20:28

either way mega thanks for helping out!

MiscellaneousAssortment · 27/01/2014 20:49

Mine is currently not written as such :)

I'll write it as a personal one including tips/ links as I was going to then either you can pull some into the short info bit if helpful. My conclusion bit might be in the form of important things to note/ remember so can be split out if it's better that way.

Off the top of my head:

  • being disabled doesn't make you a bad parent. You may feel very worried, or a failure or scared that ss will think you are a bad parent BUT anyone who says you are by definition a bad/ neglectful parent because you are disabled is discriminating against you. It's not legal to say this.
  • ask for an assessment from adult ss before anything else takes place. You can self reefer or ask your gp to refer (gps canals urgent referrals and get you seen quicker)
  • adult ss will send an assessor out to your home to do a thorough assessment of your needs. It's important to find out your councils criteria and levels for providing help.
  • after your needs have been assessed adult ss will decide whether you're entitled to any help. It's in their interests to score your needs as low as possible, as they are legally bound to provide help if you're assessed as needing it.
  • its adult ss responsibility to meet your needs as a disabled person in all your roles (personal care, as a parent etc). This could be through direct help (providing council or agency carers), or via direct payments (where you have a budget to spend on your care). Sometimes they may refer you on to other services such as charities and home start organizations
  • FACE assessment more on this.
  • The budget for your care should come from adult ss but could in some circs be topped up by children's services
  • the theory is that if your needs are being met as a disabled parent, your child should have no remaining needs unmet. However there are situations where councils agree a shared budget.
  • Do find out very clearly on what grounds you are receiving help. Do not agree that your child is at risk of neglect just because of your disability.
WestmorlandSausage · 27/01/2014 21:47

whoop! and check out the new snazzy site that went up 10 mins ago Grin

Spero · 27/01/2014 22:30

It is up and it is snazzy.
www.childprotectionresource.org.uk

Surely you don't need me to nag you all to be part of this?

Do we have any child protection social workers who want to share A Day in the Life or something similar?

OP posts:
Spero · 28/01/2014 09:34

Hopefully there will be a lot more content by the end of the day.

Please feel free to stop by and tell us what you like or don't like, what needs to be clearer or what we need more of.

Launch date is MONDAY 3RD FEB

OP posts:
Spero · 28/01/2014 11:52

Miscellaneous - I am going to cut and paste your post and put it up - please let me know if that is NOT ok.

You can refine or add to it later.

I am just keen to get as much good stuff up as we can before launch date.

OP posts:
weregoingtothezoo · 28/01/2014 12:13

Westmoreland and others - that list doesn't contain 'if you report problems with alcohol (or drugs prescription or otherwise) your children will be taken off you' - is that because it's a minefield? Is it because alcohol services are duty bound to refer anyone who is referred to them to Social Services if there are children in the home? Is that definitely true? It's what I was told - and believed - maybe it's a myth?? If not, do people need to know that? Does it make them more likely to not report - because that is the real situation that many people find themselves in, if such reports are automatic. Might be worth mentioning that AA, NA, etc, are completely anonymous.

I'm trying to condense my story - how long is too long for this sort of thing, 600 words or so?

Spero · 28/01/2014 13:35

600 words would be great length but please, make it as long or as short as you want.

Good point about drug and alcohol issues - I think we should definitely add that. Trouble is westmorland is our tech goddess and she is at work or something annoying today. I don't dare try to add stuff to site structure as last time I did, it wasn't pretty...

OP posts:
Spero · 28/01/2014 14:39

Just got an excellent piece from another family barrister and pink tape is going to let me do a guest post to plug this!

OP posts:
weregoingtothezoo · 28/01/2014 14:40

It looks BRILLIANT. I'm so impressed - well done to all.

Should I post my story here? I've adapted it straight from my blog if that's ok, but removed pretty much all the religious references, as I realise it's the wrong place for that. I am happy for it to be edited down or have a go at it.

It was about the 'should people with children with addiction issues seek help' question I was trying to write the other day and couldn't handle it. I'm a bit more level today. FWIW my Mumsnet "history" and my alcoholism "history" diverged at the point that I ended up with Social Services in my life. That's why I try and contribute on the rare occasion threads come up here. If anyone wants to read its on one of the Brave Babes threads, that I went to for help, here and I was notevenamousie, it's in the first half of that thread. I'll summarise!! as I assume reading it isn't that interesting, reading it was awful when I was trying to find it the other day. I had overshared and I was despairing and miserable, and basically 2 of the strong voices on the thread said I couldn't be real because no-one would do what I had done. And so I left mumsnet for the best part of a year because of condemnation and disbelief, during which the worst parts of my encounters with SS were going on, and I was very unsupported.

When I first asked my doctor for help, he contacted Social Services. He contacted them again 2 months later when I returned, contrite, having had a drink the night before, tearful and frightened. Very condemning, "you're not safe to be alone with her". Should we encourage people with a problem with alcohol to go and see their GPs? YES! But should they be aware that some doctors (and that in itself seems a problem, it's inconsistent even within an individual practice) will refer to SS automatically.

The other myth I personally feel quite strong about is the middle class assumption that "adoption doesn't happen to people like us". I was working as a doctor and have had no problems with my registration (I am not currently working). I went through 2 lots of NHS alcohol treatment (unsuccessfully) and the people I met there opened my eyes a lot, but I got, again and again, that 'they don't take children off people like you'. The SWs were utterly uninterested in my work, and the IRO was particularly scathing that I was only still working "because it was more important to me than my child". The fact was, work was the only thing holding me together. When I stopped, under pressure from Social Services, I fell apart completely. If any of this wittering is remotely helpful what should I compose it into? Sorry for being so long winded, I can take being told, thank you but no thank you, we don't need to hear any more.

Really love the website, will stick it on my blog and link it to local families groups I have contact with.

Spero · 28/01/2014 15:06

Zoo, it is enormously helpful. I think it opens peoples eyes - this isn't just about a plot to steal babies from the poor and feckless, this is hopefully about protecting children from issues that can come to us ALL no matter what level of education or how much money we have.

Shame keeps people silent and stops them from getting help. knowing you are not alone helps reduce shame, I really believe that.

You write very well, I will be happy to post whatever you want to write because I bet there are a number of other people out there grappling with these issues NOW and it could help.

thanks for linking us on your blog too.

OP posts:
weregoingtothezoo · 28/01/2014 18:34

What happens if I ask for help with addiction to alcohol or drugs? [I appreciate this is too long for the website!]

This is a difficult area and no assurances can be made regarding individual cases. Your recovery from addiction may depend on disclosing your difficulties to your GP, and/or local alcohol and drug services. However, if these professionals are concerned that your drinking, or drug use, affects your ability to care for your children, they are duty bound to refer you to Social Services, with or without your permission. There is no hard and fast rule as to who will be referred; this is a matter of clinical judgement and opinion.

From: Statement 3.14 Care of People who Misuse Drugs and Alcohol by the Royal College of General Practitioners

However, if you are in difficulty, the referral caused by you seeking help for your problems will be much better than leaving things until they become more out of hand and the child(ren)’s school become concerned about absence or the standard of care of the children.

weregoingtothezoo · 28/01/2014 19:05

This is taken almost directly from the hardest stuff I've written on my blog. I'll try and shorten it if necessary.

I am 32, and my birth daughter, who is now 7, was adopted a year ago. She was taken into care after 3 reported incidences of being drunk in charge of a child. I got her home 6 months later, but then it happened again. She never spent another night in my care, or even another hour unsupervised in my company. I continued with drinking binges after she was removed, until I conceded defeat and that I couldn’t get well for her, that Social Services should do as they were planning, which was that for her own best interests she should be placed with adoptive parents. Each of the initial incidences was reported to Social Services by my family members.

I am an alcoholic. I never signed up for alcoholism, in my life as a single parent with a successful professional career. Alcoholism is no respecter of gender, ethnicity, social class, education level or religion. It affects the way that you think. You think it won’t be that bad. This time I’ll be able to stop. It’ll never really happen to me. I’m in control, I’m not that bad, I can still take care of my child, no-one will find out. Lies, all lies, to justify that the drink is ok, and pretend that it hasn’t taken that primary place in my life above my girl, my career, my health, my finances, my God, and my self respect. I couldn’t even stop for my beautiful, creative, loving, and very special daughter. It is a madness of the mind, the emotions, the body and most importantly the soul. This is what proves incontrovertibly to me that I had become powerless to stop in my own strength

This is the worst grief I have ever experienced. I was 9 months sober by the time she was placed. I never stopped loving her, and I have never stopped missing her, and longing that things could have been different, that my recovery could have started sooner, that I could have been the best person for her to be with. I have had to admit that, for her own best interests, it was better for her to be adopted and settled with loving and secure parents, than remain in the care system in the hope that I got well. Except that then, I did get well, and have faced losing her, in sobriety.

If I want peace, for and within myself, I must learn to live with the inconsistencies of Social Services. I know many women who are alcoholics who have done what I did who still have their children, either because Social Services never found out, or because they decided that despite the problems the children were still better off with their parents than removed from them. When I am crying “it’s not fair” I am trying to wriggle out from what I have done – and what I have done is extremely wrong and damaging to a young child who was powerless to escape from it. Children cannot and should not have to wait until their parents get well. This is the spirit of the law in this area of child protection and it is true and it was true for my daughter. However I do want to also highlight that she never missed school, was always fed and clean and bathed and we read stories, we spent endless hours making things, and there had been no other concerns at any times, Social Services could find no emotional or psychological problems, apart from the normal distress caused by separation from her mother. There is an assumption that children who are removed are unclean, unfed, absent from school, and there are concerns from all who encounter them. Not always.

And I must grieve in silence and in private. The world does not want to hear of my grief, the primal wound that results from a mother forcibly separated from her child, because it is an unpleasant story, and I am the villain in it. And yet I must grieve. In the midst of all this, I am hurting and I have relinquished the way I had learned to cope with pain, in substances. I miss her and I love her and this hurts every part of me and some days I feel like it will consume me. I cry out to God that I am hurting and that I am grieving in the midst of terrible guilt and shame and I can’t sort all this mess out. This isn’t clean grief – having lost my mum almost 3 years ago, I know that grief too – but that is right, in the natural order of things, because children at some stage should lose their parents. My mum was young, but still, it is a clean and acceptable grief. For my daughter these feelings are complicated. I love my little girl, and I miss her with a pain that is physical, in the way it eats me up, she is lost and she is gone. I am joining one of society’s most unwanted and disliked groups, but giving this process a voice, to bring my shame and grief and hurt out of the dark where it cannot resolve, into the light might help someone else, perhaps who is facing this threat. And as I continue to cry out in pain, in prayer, for my daughter, that she will grow up loved, and if at all possible secure, and healed.

Lilka · 28/01/2014 19:17

That's such a moving and beautiful post weare I'm a bit tearful now. It will be a great addition to the site I am sure Thanks

Spero would be totally happy to write about adoptive parent peceptions of the system. Is there any topic within that you would especially like me to cover, or misconceptions to address? I have a few thoughts trailing round my head, but not sure what is best to cover?

Lilka · 28/01/2014 19:17

Sorry, were not weare

Spero · 28/01/2014 19:17

I'm so sorry zoo.

But thank you for writing this and for letting us use it.

I am hoping that even with all this pain, you can feel some comfort that you will be a light for some others who are travelling down a very dark road.

I am putting this on the website now.

OP posts:
Spero · 28/01/2014 19:21

Lilka - please just write what you want and what you feel comfortable with. My perspective is just a lawyer's one so I may not even be aware of some issues that are very important to others.

I am sure whatever you write will resonate with and help someone.

Nothing on this site is fixed in stone, we want it to be constantly evolving and updating so it is genuinely helpful.

if you are not happy with what you write later on, we can take it down, edit it, add to it, whatever you want.

This isn't 'my' blog, this is for whoever wants to contribute.

My only rule is that you don't make assertions about FACTS that you can't prove. but your own experiences, your own pain or your own joys are yours to describe or not as you wish.

OP posts:
weregoingtothezoo · 28/01/2014 19:22

And www.nta.nhs.uk/uploads/families2012vfinali.pdf should probably be referenced in the first bit I posted. Maybe with a line that says:
For parents with drug and alcohol problems, entering into treatment is a protective factor towards keeping their children with them, and meeting their emotional and physical needs in the future.
and then that reference. Sorry for the incompleteness.

Spero · 28/01/2014 19:27

Thanks for that info zoo, we will definitely include it.

I know its not much comfort now but I am sure you will meet your daughter again one day and I am sure she will be so happy to know how much you loved her.

thank you so much for sharing your story - as a lawyer it is easy for me to sometimes over look that we are dealing with immense grief that remains long after I leave the court room.

OP posts:
AnywhereOverTheRainbow · 28/01/2014 19:37

weregoingtothezoo

What a heartfelt post. I am at loss for words, crying ;(

MiscellaneousAssortment · 28/01/2014 19:43

Spero that's absolutely ok, will spur me on to finish and improve it :)

Just wanted to say btw, that I'm really happy to be part of this great endeavour. I don't know much about children's services and social work in general, but I do know how hard it was to find any information as a disabled parent, and how quickly I out grew the info I found. It's terrifying and disorientating and so much opinion got presented as fact. I can only imagine how awful it is when it's an even more terrifying situation of an investigation etc.

Absence of Fact and High Quality Advice makes a bad situation exponentially worse.

I've been following the whole err, back story that has lead you to do create this online resource, and I applaud you :)

I was lucky as I had 'status' in my previous healthy life which gave me the confidence to question things, but also left me unprepared for how you are treated when you turn into a 'vulnerable person'. I also had a very helpful trio of friends (a barrister, a bureaucrat and a paeditrician) to find things out for me and give me back bone and on occasion fight for me when I couldn't do it anymore. Even then it was a two year nightmare, including expensive specialist legal advice, before I got anywhere near the help I needed in the way that the council were obligated by law to help me. Most of that was because of misinformation and lack of existing procedures and processes for dealing with disabled parents.

I've been increasingly aware that I have this accumulation of knowledge that is rare, and must surely be of use to people in my position if only I could get it out to them. However, being disabled means it's not something I can do from scratch on my own. I'm really happy to feel that by adding a bit to your initiative, I can get done of that knowledge out there.

If this website can help even one person, it will have been a success.

Spero · 28/01/2014 19:47

This is exactly what we want to do - not to have people having to reinvent the wheel when they are going through awful trauma.

Standing on the shoulders of giants all the way!

If we can pool our knowledge and share it, this will be very powerful.

I may have a journalist interested which would be a good way of increasingly publicity for this; I will keep you posted.

OP posts:
Spero · 28/01/2014 20:05

zoo, I have added your posts about GP referrals etc to the 'general myth busting bit' but I think it probably deserves a section of its own as drink/drugs problems are massive issues in the cases I do.

But I will have to wait until Westmorland is back to sort it out! But check out the site now and see what you think, at least it is up there.

OP posts:
WestmorlandSausage · 28/01/2014 20:19

i'm here!

MiscellaneousAssortment · 28/01/2014 20:29

weregoingtothezoo your post is so moving and eye opening at the same time. Its important.

As humans we simplify the world into black and white, good and bad, angels and devils, heroes and villians. But real life isn't like that and if people are truly honest, our own lives don't stand up to scrutiny in that way either. We are all shades of grey in different ways and at different times.

But it's easier to vilify people, to put them in boxes, to make them 'the other' and dismiss them. It makes us feel safe, 'ohh, it wouldnt happen to me', in the same way that people think they can recognise bad people with their 'cold dead eyes' (or whatever). And its easy to think in stereotypes - professional = beyond repproach, middle class = perfect parents etc. But in reality, it doesn't work like that. The world doesnt work like that. Humans don't work like that.

And of course what happened was wrong. You know that. And you made a huge sacrifice. When the choice was there before you, you chose your childs life before your own. You chose this pain, this loss, this grief. It doesn't make you evil, it makes you flawed.

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