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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
PeggyCarter · 25/10/2013 13:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Thumbfuckerwitch · 25/10/2013 13:08

Did you miss a few pages, Puddle? They've moved onto sharpening worms now...
Halloween Grin

CrispyHedgehogFucker · 25/10/2013 13:09

stomps foot I want to know who pervcat is too! I can't work it out cos I is a bit fick innit :o

PeggyCarter · 25/10/2013 13:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ZombieZing · 25/10/2013 13:13

fenton

all Yoda I went. hmmm Grin

clay

I only need to report myself if I call myself cunt. Wink

ZombieZing · 25/10/2013 13:20

if you call someone a thread worm, that is a PA too. I think.
whether they are sharp or blunt.

MadameDefarge · 25/10/2013 13:22

The nature of MN is such that every now and then furious rows erupt over issues.

I think its a huge testament to MN that posters care so much about a site that has gone through massive growth - it shows that MNHQ are on the whole very skilled at maintaining an intimate and informal environment that on the whole works very well.

Sites that self regulate (in this case because of an ishoo) I think are healthier, more robust and more engaging than others moderated to within an inch of their lives.

its like being part of a family. No one is perfect all the time. Healthy dialogue allows for rows, unreasonableness, backtracking and making up. Every now and then something happens which causes a ruckus. And then the ishoo is worked through and back to business.

All of which MNHQ manages extremely well. Its healthy. MNHQ are not dictatorial, are always willing to hold their hands up and say fairs dos, coulda done that better.

The specifics of issues are less important, I think, in the long term health and balance of a site, than the manner in which they are worked through.

I would much rather some shit is left to stand rather than having such draconian rules that no one dare post.

How particular orthadoxies grow and establish themselves on forums is a big discussion.

I love the fact that we do discuss it though. And challenge and resolve.

Its all pretty healthy. Innit.

thelittlemothersucker · 25/10/2013 13:27

So, 'I find your post cuntish in the extreme'

Is that ok?

Mintyy · 25/10/2013 13:36

True dat, Fargy. If we had one of them there "like" buttons that none of the old school want, I would have to click it next to your post.

TiggyD · 25/10/2013 13:41

So you can get them in things. Blunt worms just won't go through.

MadameDefarge · 25/10/2013 13:45

cheers mintty. I too like the notion of a like button (it would show appreciation even if I don't want to post (and clog up the thread with 'sycophantic' posts)

MadameDefarge · 25/10/2013 13:47

and possibly stop my random abuse of brackets.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 13:48

@thelittlemothersucker

So, 'I find your post cuntish in the extreme'

Is that ok?

To be honest, things like this (ie your example, not your question) make us sag a bit. It just tends to look as though the poster is tying themselves in knots to make a personal attack while appearing not to make a personal attack (which is kind of similar to what people complain about 'goady fuckers' doing, isn't it?)

So yes, it might get deleted on that basis, although it would depend on the context.

Trills · 25/10/2013 13:49

I prefer people to have to SAY that they like something, so you get people saying

"I agree with..."
or
"True dat"

It's more interesting

everlong · 25/10/2013 13:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OnemorevoiceforAF · 25/10/2013 13:54

I wonder if it would be worth having the basics of the rules ie a summary- at the top of posts, with a quick link to the full.

It would remind people to report.

Still gonna be time consuming at MNHQ.

BIWI · 25/10/2013 13:55

The moral of this sorry story is, surely, to report if there's something goady going on ...

I never get why people aren't prepared to report

thelittlemothersucker · 25/10/2013 13:59

Fair point, Rowan.

MilllyMollyMully · 25/10/2013 14:00

Possibly because people don't like being called whiney-arsed reporty-pants? CharityFunDay came in for a vast amount of abuse when it was assumed that she had reported AnyFucker.

Absy · 25/10/2013 14:00

I've been deleted (as far as I know) ONCE in over 5 years of posting a lot.

That means either I'm really dull or really nice.

MilllyMollyMully · 25/10/2013 14:01

You just need a critical mass of people heeding the TAlk Guidelines. Then there would be a great deal less work for MNHQ and they could get on with improving the site in the way they would like to.

Absy · 25/10/2013 14:02

But how would people (bar MNHQ) know you've reported, unless you are all twattish and go "I've REPORTED YOU" and then you kind of deserve being called a whiney arse reporty pants. If you just report to MNHQ, in the classy way (without advertising it) then you don't run that risk.

everlong · 25/10/2013 14:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

usualsuspect · 25/10/2013 14:04

TheRhubarb. That poster started that exact same thread again this morning.

MilllyMollyMully · 25/10/2013 14:05

Absy, people make vast assumptions, often wrong. But it's ironic to say Report, report, report, and then shout Whiney-arsed reporty-pants. Not to say just a little bit childish.

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