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Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

68 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 10:10

@MarmaladeBatkins

CFD has been all wide-eyed on a lot of the AnyFucker support threads, asking for her support to be passed on.

It's either ungenuine or she honestly doesn't have a clue that she'd goaded AF. Not sure which.

You saw the bit where we said we'd taken action?

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 10:14

@QuintsHollow

Rowanmumsnet, that is just the beginning.

Do you think it is particularly supportive?

'Supportive' isn't the measure (although it's obviously desirable). 'Breaking Talk Guidelines' is the measure.

And FWIW there were a few posts on that thread - not by CFD - being unsupportive of the OP for not following Relationships board advice previously, so unsupportiveness - if that's what you think her posts were - was hardly something unique to CFD.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 10:15

@MarmaladeBatkins

Yes I saw where you'd taken action! I wasn't aiming that at MNHQ! I was just responding to a pp that said that maybe CFD had been pleased at the turn of events...

OK thanks Marmalade and sorry

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 10:28

@ButThereAgain

Marmelade, you raise the possibility that CFD "doesn't have a clue that she'd goaded AF". Is that meant to imply that someone might be "goading" and not even know it? It's hard to interpret that as meaning anything other than a claim that simply posting something that AF (or anyone else) is likely to disagree strongly with amounts to "goading" regardless of your intention when posting.

The word goading seems to be used to problematise a wider and wider range of posts. Taken as a whole, the popularity of the word as a term of criticism on MN does seem to amount to saying that "if you violate what I take to be an established consensus you are posting unacceptably and either you should be moderated, or I should be forgiven for launching a personal attack on you, or both." That is very disturbing. It completely erodes the conditions for a thoughtful exchange of opinions.

Thanks ButThereAgain - this does clearly outline part of what we think the problem is.

'Goading' is HUGELY subjective. Posting 'you're a twat' is not remotely subjective.

This isn't to say that goading doesn't go on. But it can be exceptionally difficult to tell where 'expressing an unpopular opinion' ends and 'goading' starts.

This is why we tend to take posters' past histories heavily into account when they're reported for this sort of thing. If we can see that they have a history of starting kick-off threads on reliably touchy issues, or if they're reported by a wide variety of posters for being goady, then it can flag that there's an issue.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 10:38

@MarmaladeBatkins

That's exactly what I mean, ButThereAgain. I honestly think that some people don't realise they are being goady because they are naturally combatative people. I was friends with such a person IRL, honestly, you couldn't order a cup of tea in a cafe without her going on the offensive, but when called on it she'd be genuinely shocked at how people saw her...

I do worry about what you have just said, though. Sometimes someone will start a thread on here and you can tell the OP is a bit wet behind the ears but has managed to choose a topic that will provoke a reaction on MN. They will be accused of goading and get a lot of Hmm faces. Not everyone that posts a question/opinion contrary to the MN party line is a goader. Obviously the benefit basher type threads are cunt-worthy and silly but there are others, than as a newcomer to the boards, you might not know were regarded as 'goady'.

I am waffling now.

The benefits-basher thing is a very good example actually.

If someone relatively new comes along and says 'how come these people can be claiming benefits but still have enormous tellies' - are they necessarily a goader? Or are they someone with what is actually a fairly mainstream viewpoint, using MN to express what they think?

(Not saying we like these sorts of threads, but it is a good example of how this issue can be difficult to judge without mind-reading equipment.)

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 10:41

@Sparklysilversequins

It was reported by a few posters but it is still there.

The poster has not been back and I and another were deleted rapidly. Almost makes you wonder if someone was posting nasty shit to get a rise then reporting gleefully once they did doesn't it? Oh wait.........

I didn't even CALL them a GF. I said that it could be a good example of being one.

It's gone (and was not deleted by me - it had gone when I opened the thread to look).

We still have a big backlog of reports in our system, and things aren't always going to be dealt with as promptly as we'd like. We're sorry about this.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 10:56

OK. Well if there's nothing else that's urgent, i can go and get on with helping to clear the rather extremely massive posts backlog?

But we'd really appreciate your input on the goading issue that I outlined below. How would you have us deal with those sorts of reports? We'd honestly be interested to know.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 11:14

@Sparklysilversequins

Janey that thread was an OP being nice to single parents even though some didn't take it that way saying how she didn't know how we did it and good on us.

It wasn't just an opinion from Cabernet because it wasn't that kind of thread. It was a couple of really nasty lines about "single mums who breed irresponsibly with idiot men and only have themselves to blame". Totally irrelevant to what the thread was actually about.

Just to be accurate, the line was 'Too many people also breed irresponsibly, with idiot men who have no intention of sticking around...'

ie not actually naming single mums.

But as we said, we've deleted it anyway

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 11:34

@DixonBainbridge

LtAllHallowsEve

Exactly as you say. An ability to report you suspect they're deliberately doing it would be useful. Not sure if MNHQ has the "spare" resources to police it though....

You can do this already - honestly. Loads of people do. Just use the comments box in the 'report post' dialogue box to say whatever it is you want to say to us - 'please look at all her posts on this thread', 'pleass could you have a general look into this poster', 'I saw her behaving weirdly on another thread yesterday as well'... etc etc

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 11:42

@BeyondPissedOffAtTheWorld

Following on from Basils post, could you clarify if it could ever be considered a personal attack to say:

"George, that post is blatantly racist/homophobic/disablist"

Or even

"Bill, your post above is reinforcing a negative stereotype of single mums, and I disagree wholeheartedly"

Both of these things are unequivocally fine

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 11:44

@BasilFucker

As part of "what next" MNHQ, could you have a look at what actually constitutes a personal attack?

I'm still not actually sure. "You are a cunt" is fairly straightforward and easy. "You're wearing your cunt hat today" is indirect and oblique, but it's still a personal insult, though perhaps not a personal attack.

I've got myself into a muddle with thinking what is a personal attack and if it's the same as a personal insult and if indirectly insulting someone should be allowed or looked at askance.

Also whether sometimes, personal attacks are "fair comment". "You are a cunt" clearly isn't, but "You are a racist/ homophobe/ man-hater/ misogynist" may be felt as a PA by the person who is on the receiving end of it but may also be a sincerely held view and therefore count as fair comment.

Any thoughts on that Rowan? Could that be thrown into the mix when MNHQ are looking at all this stuff?

Very happy to talk about this on the webchat next week.

But of your examples:

You're a cunt - deleted so long as not obviously a joke
You're wearing your cunt hat - again, probably deleted unless we can see it's a joke
You are a racist/homophobe etc - deletable
Your post is racist/homophobic - fine

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 11:46

@ZombieZing

Rowan

can I say "you are being a cunt" when someone is being a cunt?

Nope

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 11:55

@PervCat

rowan- do you remember by OWN topic?

ah halcyon days

I don't think I do, may have been before I signed up

You old gimmer

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 11:58

@QuintsHollow

SO, in short, you can be a cunt on a thread, but it is not possible to call somebody on it by calling them a cunt.

Too much mind gymnastics in this.

I don't think we ever said it was OK to be a cunt on a thread? But then we think our Talk Guidelines do cover most forms of cuntish behaviour, one way or another.

Low-level goading is one where - as I outlined in my post below about benefits - it's almost impossibly difficult for us to make a sensible judgement unless someone has an established posting history (for good or bad).

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 12:00

Do you want me rootling through your posting histories or do you want me deleting personal attacks from Thursday morning, hmmmmm?

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 12:02

@curlew

Does a person who has been complained about have a right to know what the complaints were?

We're always happy to discuss, unless we think someone is an out-and-out troll. Mail in to [email protected] and you'll get a reply

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 13:48

@thelittlemothersucker

So, 'I find your post cuntish in the extreme'

Is that ok?

To be honest, things like this (ie your example, not your question) make us sag a bit. It just tends to look as though the poster is tying themselves in knots to make a personal attack while appearing not to make a personal attack (which is kind of similar to what people complain about 'goady fuckers' doing, isn't it?)

So yes, it might get deleted on that basis, although it would depend on the context.

RebeccaMumsnet · 25/10/2013 19:59

Hi all,

Apologies for the radio silence this arvo. Justine has been out at the BBC 100 women conference all day, which is why she hasn't posted not because she was being a scared cat and sending the muscle Rowan in.

In response to a few Qs:

We have no evidence to think CFD is a troll - more of a different poster. We have dealt with CFD in the same way would would anyone else and mailed them.

@THERhubarb

Apologies if this has been addressed already but Justine, yesterday a poster started a thread about how ADHD was all made up. That thread was deleted so the poster started another thread. Amy came on to say that the second thread would also be deleted and they would contact the poster to let them know why.

I want to know why that poster, who was clearly out to offend and cause upset, wasn't then banned? Or even suspended? How can it be that a poster can start 2 inflammatory threads in the space of an hour, have them both deleted and yet be free to start another one?

I don't know if that poster did start another thread or is even contributing to threads today (I hope not) but if you can go back to take a look at that I would be very grateful.

Hi Rhubarb, I will take a look into this one now.

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