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Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

68 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2013 23:04

@Scarymuff

I'm going to be reporting a lot more posts I think. Usually I just ignore shit but if people are having it held against them, I might as well contribute to the count.

Please do. Really. Please. (This goes for everybody.)

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2013 23:07

@IamInvisisble

Are the volunteer mods just working through the night?

Yup that's right

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2013 23:08

@Mintyy

I think this volunteer mods thing is much bigger news than the AF ban. Are you sure you aren't trying to hide the announcement on a bad news day?

Well if the last 24 hours haven't convinced you that we're just not that good on short-term strategy, nothing will... Grin

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2013 23:15

@OnemorevoiceforAF

How on earth is it possible for several names- including a couple in this quite serious thread (who have just had yet more posts deleted, by the way) to just keep going with nasty shit from one thread to another . And over a long period.

Those of us who use the site regularly get to recognise them. Including people like me, who don't use the term "feminist".

Taken as a whole picture , surely you can see this has not been handled well?

Well there've been 7 (I think?) deletions on this thread, three of them of posters who are on AF's 'side' (sorry to be crude about it but I think that's a fair interpretation?)

Of the others (having a quick look at their posting history and reports record), they don't show up as having been reported frequently at all.

If you think there's a pattern we ought to be acting on, we really do need you to report it.

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2013 23:20

@ChippingInNeedsANYFUCKER

I thought Rowan was a man Grin

She soon put me right Grin

185/72,000 is an insignificant percentage. Given the Topics AF posts in and the fact that she stands up to the GFs and MTs and doesn't allow them to derail a thread - I can't see the problem.

That's without taking into account of things like 5 (or so of them) were probably on the thread that got her banned/suspended - where some very balanced posters cannot see that what she said was a PA and the fact that CFD is one of the GF's...??

I don't think you should be able to namechange in the first 12 months without permission from MN. It wouldn't stop the multiple sign ups, but it would help with some of the GFs.

Also, MNHQ, how much time is spent looking at other sites to see how they are laughing at causing all this trouble. It should be fairly easy to match up their 'boasts' with their 'posts'.

Sorry to bang on, but we don't have a problem with people 'standing up' and expressing strong views.

We have a problem with people breaking Talk Guidelines.

We think it's possible to state your case with searing precision, and remain perfectly within Guidelines. We see posters doing this every day.

The fact is, things got to this point - much to our dismay - with AF because 185/72,000 is not, in our experience, insignificant at all; it was very noticeable.

On your last point - if you see something going on on another site that you think we ought to know about, we'd love you to mail us ([email protected])

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2013 23:24

@TheFabulousFuckingIdiotFucker

'Of the others (having a quick look at their posting history and reports record), they don't show up as having been reported frequently at all.'

so what you are saying is that if someone hasn't been reported a lot that is automatically an indication that nothing is amiss?

No - we're saying that if you think something is amiss, please report it.

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2013 23:26

@lougle

I've just looked back through the site stuff threads. There's nothing between May 2013 and now. I've checked the title of every one

I'm not fussed on a personal level - no way I'd be staying up at night to weed out hairy truckers. However, I do think that it is a fair question to ask how the volunteers have been selected and why quite regular posters have no idea that it was even happening.

You know what lougle, we're beginning to think maybe it was deleted to protect the identities of the people who volunteered.

Although this may be bolleaux. It was a HelenMumsnet thing you see.

We will get to the bottom of it tomorrow but we really need to think about going to bed soon

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2013 23:27

@RosaParksIsBack

Rowan could someone have a look at that AIBU thread? It's not very nice, apologies if you already are.

I'll see if I can find it now Rosa

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2013 23:30

OMG Murder I think I love you

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2013 23:32

@YoniMatopoeia

I have reported two posts on this thread that are not being very nice about AF, which is pretty unfair in her absence. Not heard anything back yet

Sorry Yoni - you wouldn't believe the size of our inbox. Are the posts still there?

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:12

@mathanxiety

I disagree that there is any orthodoxy on Relationships and I am dismayed that this opinion seems to be floated here.

People rarely post on Relationships to say their marriages are lovely and their husbands / wives are wonderful.

Most threads concern horrible spouses and spousal abuse of one kind or another. Therefore most of the advice is along the lines of 'make plans to leave' or 'go to Women's Aid and have them help you make plans to leave' or 'no it is not normal for a man to refuse to give you enough money to buy food for the family or to ask for an accounting of every penny you spend', etc.

Occasionally someone will post something along the lines of 'this is partly your fault'. This is not what Women's Aid would say to someone who needed help in a situation of domestic abuse, and therefore nobody should expect to have such a view go unchallenged.

I do not understand why there is a perception that the truth of any matter always lies somewhere in the middle and therefore nobody who comes across as strident could possibly be right. This is simply not the case a lot of the time. 'LTB' is something of a cliche, but so many times a woman's life is immeasurably improved, and the lives of her children too, when she gets the courage to pack and go. There is no reason why anyone should put up with abuse in their own home or anywhere else.

Abuse can be identified just from reading what an OP posts about his or her relationship (do I get points for PCness?). It is not necessary to hear the other half of the story.

Abuse can never be tolerated and there are no excuses whatsoever for it. It is extremely important to get that message across even in the teeth of a huge cultural disinclination to see it in stark terms.

Morning all

We don't disagree with any of this, but we can only reiterate that we get regular reports and messages (I got a few last night while posting on this thread) from people who say they feel unable to post there. When we can see that the people saying this are genuine MNers (have been around a while, post regularly in other boards, don't have any reputation for making trouble) then we need to take their views into consideration.

We've no objection at all to people who say 'LTB', but we do have a problem if people saying 'I'm not sure you should LTB' are being shouted down. We aim to allow MNers to have constructive conversations, and if something's getting in the way of that then from our POV it's a problem - in the same way that people thinking it's OK to use AIBU as a fight club is problematic.

None of this is to say that people in Relationships don't get great support and advice from other MNers.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:22

We're afraid we disagree with you, ScaryMuff, that AF's posts on that thread weren't personal attacks. They called CFD 'passive-aggressive', a 'bossy know-it-all', and talked about her 'officiously self-important posturings'.

It's a long way from being the worst stuff we've seen, but it's definitely something we class as a personal attack.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:24

Oh, and we're sorry about not responding to some reports from yesterday (and indeed some reports from the night before). We will get around to them all eventually but we're still mopping up the backlog.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:33

@Thisfuckerisaeuphemism

It is interesting how that thread turned out though.

CDF went on to laugh at op who decided she couldn't post anymore.

Yes. And we've done something about it.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:35

@PatoBanton

'They called CFD 'passive-aggressive', a 'bossy know-it-all', and talked about her 'officiously self-important posturings'.

LOL sorry, I can just imagine Kim jong un launching a pre-emptive strike over something like this.

'But someone on the internet said they thought my hairstyle was out of date'. BOOM

Well our threshold isn't quite the same as that used for thermo-nuclear war. It's just 'is this a personal attack?'

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:36

@LEMisafucker

Cfd turned out to be the epitome of a goady fucker though. I called her a two faced cunt on her thread mnhq must have missed that. Maybe I should be suspended but then maybe cfd should be too. Just because she is more subtle in her twisted game playing. ((Hugs)) my arse

Well LEM... maybe you've got your wish

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:38

@QuintsHollow

"I am amazed that those are the examples given, having not seen the original thread"

There is not much to see now, MNHQ has even deleted the OPs hurt and upset at CFD mocking her, and her refusal to engage further in the thread with her problem.

It is so sad that a poster was allowed to not only be so hurtful and spiteful, and full of mockery, on a thread posted in Relationships, but also managed to manipulated mnhq into getting AF banned for calling her on it (albeit clumsily).

To be fair, that poster wasn't hurtful or spiteful until she was personally attacked - apparently for not conforming to the prevailing viewpoint on the thread.

As soon as she did actually start to break our Guidelines, we took action.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:39

@PatoBanton

I understand Rowan, but those are possibly the LEAST offensive PAs I've ever seen on MN - I thought it would have been something, you know, of a calibre that wasn't regularly left to stand day in and day out on here.

Seriously it is FULL of insults far worse than those, I cannot see how they can stand out as worthy of this much emphasis.

Genuinely puzzled.

It may well be because they haven't been reported, PatoBanton?

We don't see them if they're not.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:40

@PatoBanton

Plus they all sound like criticism of the posts - not the poster - as stated in your guidelines this is allowed.

grey area perhaps?

Yes, it can be a grey area. If it seems clear to us that people are coming up with convoluted formations to get around the personal attacks rule, we'll use our judgement.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:41

@LEMisafucker

Well I could do with a break

I didn't mean you!

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:43

Thanks Marmalade - we've deleted it, plus your re-posting of it

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:46

@PatoBanton

'It may well be because they haven't been reported, PatoBanton?'

That would possibly be because they aren't generally considered worthy of reporting?

Well that's up to individuals of course. We're just saying that it's the explanation for the apparent inconsistency.

Plus, context matters. CFD had not personally attacked anyone on the thread at that point. If she'd been engaging in personal attacks herself, and it was looking like a case of low-level handbags between two posters with them both being as bad as each other, we might have decided to leave it.

But that's not what happened here: CFD rolled up, gave her opinion - in a way that was completely within Guidelines - and got attacked for it.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:50

@Imdoingthis

If I was AF I would be so angry that all this was being said and my personal account information being given out to all....

And on a suspension of her account so he can not post and respond

This is unfair on AF seems like a personal attack to me, of her and her personal information,

We take on board that lots of you are annoyed about this.

Tbh yesterday it really seemed that this was the only way to be completely transparent about what had gone on. Bear in mind that for about 24 hours people had been accusing us of lying, and of being incompetent.

We may decide to edit that info out in some way once the conversation has died down, but while this is still a live issue (and our stats tell us that it is) then we just think we need to be completely clear about what's happened.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:51

@PatoBanton

'But that's not what happened here: CFD rolled up, gave her opinion - in a way that was completely within Guidelines - and got attacked for it.'

Also in a way that was (arguably completely) within guidelines...?

Nope - we don't think it was

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 10:03

@OhAntiChristFENTON

But that's not what happened here: CFD rolled up, gave her opinion - in a way that was completely within Guidelines - and got attacked for it.

But her very first post on that thread, and many that followed, were not in support and help for the OP but to criticise others postings, in flippant, pisstaking and derogatory ways.

and then AF got suspended for criticising CFD's postings

Take a look.

OK let's have a look at it (pasted in below).

is this something you regard as 'goady' in the context of the info posted up by the OP at that point?

If it had been posted by someone else, would it have been regarded as goady?

Because in all honesty it looks OK to us - trenchant, but not abusive or rude.


Two things.

  1. She is not, as far as you know, the "OW"

  2. This:

I've snooped a lot and never found anything dodge but all the chat seems a bit flirty to me not because they are explicity flirting but because they so clearly like each other and bounce mails back and forth.

Is just paranoid "logic". Step back and look at what you yourself have said:

You haven't found anything incriminating, but you have found some innocent chat which must be flirty despite the fact that it isn't, because talking to someone indicates you're interested in them sexually.

Have a word with yourself.

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