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Original poster

Justine said

26 replies

GretaGip · 17/11/2012 21:28

that deletions were going to be a bit more reasonable.

I have just seen 2 deletions on a thread that totally weren;t against Talk Guidelines.

What the heck is going no?

I happen to still have a window opem, and can quote them.

It's really annoying and actually unacceptable, as it makes sane poaters look like Vipers when they're not. I thought this was going to be eradicated.

I am really saddened.

HQ?

Go to post
MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 21:52

Hello. We do hope we are being more reasonable

But if people make personal attacks on another poster - even in retaliation to a personal attack on them - then they're breaking our Talk Guidelines too.

You're always welcome to mail in to us and ask why your post was deleted - we'll always be happy to explain.

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 21:56

@GretaGip

"You're delusional and your posts come across as unhinged btw. Just so's you know."

OK. So, in that sentence, "You're delusional" is a clear personal attack.

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 21:56

@Nagoo

I haven't seen the deletey-ness in question, but I do think that in terms of 'since Justine said' deletions have been more reasonable. In general.

Would someone PM me so I can see for myself please please?

I have been reading, actual books! SO it's cut right down on my thread devouring rate.

Thank you, Nagoo.

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 22:00

@SuePurblybiltbyElves

XP. Really - 'delusional' is a personal attack? Is 'you're wrong' a personal attack too? Delusional in that sense surely means that you think you're right and you're not.

Yes. A personal attack can still be a personal attack, even if it stating the truth.

So, "You're an ugly cow, HelenMumsnet" is a personal attack, even if I do indeed make the back ends of buses shriek in horror.

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 22:02

@GretaGip

So If SueP typed a message to me Helen that said:

"You're chunky, you hefty sod."

Would that be deleted, as it's true?

I can't get my head around this.

I'll bet I can find a gazullion worse PAs than the delusional one that are still extant.

Thanks for coming on the thread, though. Smile [polite]

It would depend on context, GretaGip.

In the context of a bunfighty thread about weightwatching (for example), probably.

in the context of an affectionate chat between MN mates, probably not.

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 22:04

@SuePurblybiltbyElves

But I don't get the difference between 'deluded' and 'wrong' in this case. 'You're wrong' is surely not a PA?

I am sure you do not make buses shriek Grin

Saying someone is wrong is disagreeing with their opinion.

Saying they are delusional is implying their mental health/ability to think clearly is impaired. Which makes it personal.

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 22:05

@Portofino

The personal attack was on ME. I am happy for the post to stand.

That's very nice of you, Porto. But if we've seen it, we're duty-bound to delete it.

(And I think our heads would explode if we had to check with the person who was attacked every time first.)

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 22:06

@Portofino

She said it, I never reported it. I do not believe she should be able to retract it.

She didn't, did she? It was deleted, not withdrawn...

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 22:10

@MrsDeVere

I think its a bit bangoutoforder to be able to say something really horrible then get it deleted yourself. Having your cake and eating it, that is.

But she didn't. If we'd agreed to delete at her request, you would have seen "message withdrawn at poster's request"

We deleted that post before she reported it. (Cos someone else reported it first!)

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 22:10

@Portofino

Can I have it now?

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 22:15

@GretaGip

I'm sorry, Helen. This is probably not what you need on a Saturday night.

It's obviously a fine line to tread to decide what to dlete and what not to.

I'm just a bit sore about having a deletion ages ago that I still feel wasn;t desrved, and now I can;t claim I'm all shiny and pure on MN. Sad

So, thise sour grapes are affecting my response to the two deletions in reply to the outandout PA.

I think I'll go back to InanityTrulyReigns and do some arsetwittery.

S'ok. We do get it.

Someone is vile. You say something chippy in return.

Both posts get deleted.

It feels unfair as chippy isn't as bad as vile.

But we don't do gradations of personal attack, we're afraid. Our heads really would explode then!

Perhaps it's best just to say something acidly nice instead of chippy in future? I dunno, maybe, "What a charming/intelligent/awesomely articulate post"? Point is made but it's not personal...

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 23:23

@MmeLindor

I don't think saying someone is delusional is a personal attack.

It is all v box of froggish really.

Ah but it is. Someone's posts might be delusional or someone's opinion, though.

It's like the difference between "You're mad" and "Your opinions are mad"

One is personal. T'other isn't.

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 23:28

@ExitPursuedByABrrrrrrr

But Helen - I called you delusional and I haven't been deleted.

Indeed you did.

Grin
MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 23:30

@OatyBeatie

Hmm, I think "Your opinions are mad" is just shorthand for saying "Your opinions are those of a mad person (i.e. you are mad)" Actual opinions can't be mentally disordered: they don't have minds; they are in minds.

(Not that that helps at all. It's just a bit interesting.)

Well if you want to be pedantic, Oaty , I think it's possible to hold an opinion on one thing that is similar to that of a mad person but not, in fact, to be a mad person yourself.

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 23:35

@MmeLindor

Hmm, I just worry that we are getting so tied up in knots about language that some quite tame posts are being deleted.

And that as we get more and more devious about what we post, we will still be insulting the poster, but not deletable.

'You are nuts / mad as a box of frogs / delusional ... ' are not allowed but 'your opinions are seriously fucked up' could stay?

Strictly speaking, MmeLindor, yes. But, as we posted earlier, it does all depend on context.

The same words "You are nuts / mad as a box of frogs / delusional" could be posted with very different intent, from affectionate to deliberately insulting.

We do always try to read reported posts in context.

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 23:37

@SuePurblybiltbyElves

Well, quite. The poster in question called someone else's posts 'shitty', mid-rant. That's not been deleted, or even reported I shouldn't think - nor do I think it should be.

Indeed they shouldn't. Though we rather wish she hadn't posted that - not very civil.

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 23:37

@ChippingInLovesAutumn

Helen - are you ignoring me :(

Sorry, who?

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 23:41

@ChippingInLovesAutumn

Helen - 'you are delusional' can't possibly be a 'personal attack'.

Delusional:

having false or unrealistic beliefs or opinions

a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary

How can either of those consitute a personal attack?

Sorry

Because delusional also has a medical definition, associated with psychiatric illness.

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 23:46

Look, in the end, it's not about semantics; it's about civility.

We welcome robust debate and strong differences of opinion.

But we ask that everyone treats everyone else with civility and respect, even while having the strongest possible opposite opinion.

So rather than asking which words and wording are the most delete-dodgy ways of insulting/having a pop at another poster, we'd rather you didn't insult/have a pop at them all.

Have a pop at their opinions instead.

Play the ball, people, not the player

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 23:49

@MmeLindor

I am going to petition MNHQ to have YATBAC included in the official acronym list.

Yeah but we'll define it as "You are the best at counter-arguing"

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 23:53

@ChippingInLovesAutumn

From the medical dictionary:

medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/delusion. delusion /de·lu·sion/ (dĕ-loo´zhun) an idiosyncratic false belief that is firmly maintained in spite of incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary...

I still don't see how it's a personal attack.

Seriously, it's also defined as a "persistent false psychotic belief" and is associated with some forms of paranoia, schizophrenia etc etc

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 23:56

@garlicbaguette

I don't believe people can't tell the difference between insulting an opinion and insulting the person who opined. "That's crap" is a debating position. "You're crap" is an insult.

Indeed.

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 17/11/2012 23:58

Oh look and now you've made me take my eye off the bidets.

Grr.

Excuse me for a mo

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 18/11/2012 00:03

@Portofino

I am all agog because I "started' all this with no more than an autocorrect. To me, this should be about what the poster wrote, which was rude, defensive etc. The responses WERE fair in the context.

Think it might be useful if I repost my earlier post here..

We do get it.

Someone is vile. You say something chippy in return.

Both posts get deleted.

It feels unfair as chippy isn't as bad as vile.

But we don't do gradations of personal attack, we're afraid. Our heads really would explode then!

Perhaps it's best just to say something acidly nice instead of chippy in future? I dunno, maybe, "What a charming/intelligent/awesomely articulate post"? Point is made but it's not personal...

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 18/11/2012 00:12

@ChippingInLovesAutumn

Helen - I didn't see that on any of the sites I looked it up on & have never intended it as anything other than a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary as in - 'you are delusional if you think your teenager doesn't swear when you are not around'. It's getting hard to know what you can actually say without unwittingly offending someone :(

No that's fine. We do understand - and we're always happy to explain our thinking behind a deletion in situations like this.

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