Madmouse's open letter to MNHQ about the treatment of those with disabilities on MN

[madmouse]

Dear MNHQ

I joined MN when I was pregnant with my lovely ds. That heady autumn with bump before such words as NICU, neonatal seizures, brain damage, cerebral palsy, speech delay, special school entered my vocabulary.

That was 5 whole years ago - and all that time MN has been a part of my life. Got a lot of support from my ante- and postnatal buddies and from experienced SN mums. Gave back where I could. Became ill with PTSD, found the MH threads, recovered, started to give support on the MH threads.

Now I've come to the point that the only thing stopping me from leaving MN is that I would let down people on the MH threads. Other than that your (MNHQ) behaviour today has been an eye opener and a bit of a final straw.

MN has become, like RL, a place where disabled people and people with disabled children are not safe, not treated equally and not extended the same courtesy and respect as those without disabilities.

What happened today is just a tip of the ice berg. Day in day out threads appear with the same old theme. AIBU to use this disabled space because my baby's maxi cosy is too big and the P&T spaces are full, AIBU to use the wheelchair space on the bus (those two appear weekly by and large), AIBU to think it's nice to be disabled because you get lots of benefits, AIBU to think disabled people have it easy, AIBU to think I should have a free car too seeing as that I pay taxes.

It goes on and on and on. And none of it is ever challenged other than by a small group of us who do all this fighting in RL too - because it affects us and our children.

There is such thing as discrimination. And you do have a duty to stamp it out. Hand off moderation is no excuse certainly seeing how quick you were to delete 2shoes thread when some of us started fighting back against the endless threads of threads which in turn are copies of last week's threads.

I am very disappointed. And I think you have some thinking to do.

Best wishes

WE'RE NOT HERE TO EDUCATE!

Rowan, why don't you likewise take the view then that misconceptions about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann should be allowed to stand so that people can be 'educated' via debate? They get deleted.

"But, yes - we think that, on balance, it's better to allow people to air a genuine misconception (in this case, broadly speaking, that in some circumstances it might be OK for a pram to take a wheelchair space), for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it allows other posters (by no means exclusively posters from the SN boards) to put them right. Secondly, we believe that hosting these debates (always with the caveat that they remain reasonably civil) does an awful lot to inform the opinions and attitudes of those who do not deal with disability issues on a daily basis. Over the years, we've seen countless posts by MNers that show how far our members are informed by the experience of reading these threads."

So it would be perfectly ok for me to trot over to AIBU and start a thread about whether black people should be allowed onto buses? That would be ok because its a 'genuine misconception' and other posters can 'put me right'?

No it chuffing well wouldn't be ok and we both know it, so why is it ok to post such threads about disabled people??

Definitely, Eighties. Perfect example.
Oh but no.... that's a middle class professional family.
Not the same at all is it?

I'm left with an overwhelming sense of worry about what my ds will have to deal with when he is no longer small enough to have his big mouthed assertive lawyer mum protect him. I can only hope MN is not a true reflection of society

My daughter has MS she was diagnosed when she was 16, she is now 20, in the past four years I have watched her walk with no supports tO using a wheelchair, her father has had to learn out to lift her out of a bath with out her losing her dignity. I have had to fight tooth and nail to get her diagnosed, to get her the basic MH treatment when she could only think of killing her self, fight to get basic equipment to aid her in our home and I am still fighting for her to live a life. I have educated doctors, nurses, physics, family and friends and still continue to educate them.

We are lucky today she can walk, remember my name and express her wishes, tomorrow I could have to deal with mobility loss from the neck down and a child unable to remember that my name is Mum.

I am not here to educate the ignorant on MN, I don't want to continue my fights in the Internet world, I want to come to a place where I can talk shit and forget the struggle that my daughter and I have to live with everyday.

Every time a 'disabled ' thread appears on this site my heart sinks a little more, knowing that not only has my daughter got to fight this crippling disease she also has to fight this continued prejudice that is spouted on here.

I must thank all those that challenge the ignorant, you have greater strength and courage than me.

Sorry for any typos I am on my iPod

'WE'RE NOT HERE TO EDUCATE!'

No, the consensus seems to be that the disabled are either here to be pitied, gawped at by the parents of 'normal' children or used as entertainment for the arrogant and unpleasant masses.
Every wheelchair user with an extendable cattle prod, that would solve the problem.

@madmouse

Rowan I think that maybe MNHQ and some of us have different ideas about what disablist is.

Yes, this may well be true - and this is an issue we've encountered on other boards as well (for example, definitions of 'sexism' in FWR, and definitions of 'rape apology/rape myth' after we began the We Believe You campaign).

We believe in light touch moderation, because we think it makes for the best discussions. But every so often that butts up against some MNers' (understandable) wish for more moderation in a particular area - often because, as someone (sorry) has said here, because they have an entirely understandable wish for Mumsnet to be a safe space.

As ever, we are ready and willing to listen to what you all think; I'm sure nobody at MNHQ is going to claim that we have nothing to learn here.

Yeah, that'd leave DS1 out, he doesn't have a wheelchair unlike his 2 siblings.

Well put MadMouse

MNHQ take note

We shouldn't need to educate, because it should be clear that discriminating against a section of society is wrong - in this case, taking the only seat on a bus available to a wheelchair user.

Why are you even debating this, MNHQ? Why is it left to the stressed minority to educate an ignorant majority without support? We have laws protecting the vulnerable in society from attack, and we have unpaid parents and paid care workers receiving a pittance to ensure these are met on a daily basis.

I don't want to spend my leisure time stating the bleeding obvious in the face of overwhelming opposition, ta very much!

Sorry Glitter and Brussels. The wasn't directed at you.

The sn and sen boards are the only boards on mn where this sort of crap is let go routinely.

As the parents of kids with sn or sen or as disabled people ourselves we are not here to make someone feel better about their bigotry.

Hth mnhq

Can I also say a quiet thank you to those who challenge the ignorant (to quote EXmrsmascarahead). I am one of those who were blithely ignorant of the challenges that disabled people face every day.

I am (I think) a kind and thoughtful person but I am horrified to realise that my ignorance may have, or may in the future have kicked someone when they're already down. It is to my shame that I never thought about life as someone with a disability.

So thank you, angry ones, I know you're not here to educate, but you have opened my eyes. Some of the stories on here have brought tears to my eyes (madmouse). I am so sorry that you have this battle to fight as well.

Problem is Rowan, there aren't many sites like this where people who have children with disabilities can meet and swap ideas and support in a more general setting.
I came over here with a couple of mates when the site I used to use was bough out by Disney, and then closed down. That had an amazingly active Autism and Asperger's board, blown to smithereens.
So it's very distressing when the same ignorant, entitled views are aired over and over again and the same weary band point out that pregnancy and having toddlers really isn't a disability, to horrified shrieks from the mothers that can't believe anyone could be so very thoughtless about them and their darlings.

"We believe in light touch moderation,"
seems that is only when it suits,
my thread was not treated with a light touch, I was not offered the chance to ask a question, unlike the op on her 2 threads.
no mine was deleted.
yet mn hq still want people like me to educate.
as I said double standards and beyond wrong.

Agree absolutely 2 shoes

mouse I don't 'know' you, I'm lucky to have not needed the support of the SN or MH threads but I just wanted to say what an eloquent and moving first post and thread.

I can see both sides of the argument here, on one hand you should not have to 'educate' people on here all the time I'm sorry this no longer feels like a safe place for you. On the other hand if people aren't pulled up their views then they can't change.

It seems a compromise needs to be reached maybe MNHQ could consider only letting one thread a month run on ths topic so you don't have to encounter it everyday? Would that work for you? So not perfect I know but all I can come up in at the moment.

All the best, strawberry.

Well said madmouse

"MNHQ:
Our Guidelines say that we will delete disablist posts, and (as a team) that's what we strive to do. We're extremely sorry if that's not the way it seems to some of you."

I'm aware your guidelines say that but with all due respect, they are certainly failing in practice.

People report disabilist posts and are told HQ have decided to let them stand for reasons of useful debate/educating posters etc. I have given this a lot of thought as I do not think HQ are deliberately doing this but it has now been going on a long time.

Is it that MNHQ do not actually recognising disabilist posts as disabilist when they read them?

Why do you think there is such a big gap between what we find disabilist and what MNHQ think is bad enough to delete?

Could you adjust your radars to a more appropriate setting of sensitivity, so to speak?

This is a longstanding issue now so perhaps HQ could revisit how your policy is actually implemented? Because it's a fine policy but its certainly not working.

'I'm lucky to have not needed the support of the SN or MH threads'

I don't consider myself unlucky in any sense, or my DS. But by all means, do consider the unfortunate and unlucky with a kindly eye.