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If Fathers for Justice invade again

7 replies

Nyac · 07/03/2012 14:57

will they still be welcome?

I'm referring to the thread in the Feminism/Women's Rights section -

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a1419965-Agenda-much

where Justine said:

"an invasion - ie let's go on and tell those mumsnetters why they've got it all wrong - isn't necessarily the same as trolling tbh (ie deliberately misleading/antagonising). I think we ought to be able to be robust enough to be able to debate the issue, with the caveat, of course, that if visitors turn out merely to be here to wind up or hear to spread hatred then they are not welcome"

It appears that as long as they promote their agenda in PARD then no harm done. Is that a fair assessment?

JustineMumsnet · 07/03/2012 17:33

Thanks for the ongoing thoughts - I haven't bowed out just snowed under. Promise to look and respond to further points in due course.

JustineMumsnet · 09/03/2012 02:09

Evening folks. So I've given all this a bit of thought and here's what I think:

F4J is not a credible organisation. The media doesn't take them seriously. They have 500-odd twitter followers and 1000-odd Facebook followers. In short they have little influence and no traction.

By contrast Mumsnet is widely acknowledged as influential. Ministers (and Prime ministers) like to visit us. Brands like to partner with us. Newspapers like to write about us.

F4J's only way to get noticed is to come up with stunts. A fight with Mumsnet fits the bill - but only if we comply. Many of you have commented that F4J are trolling and as we know, the first rule of trolls is DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS. I know it's tempting but by taking them on, you are totally feeding the trolls.

Quite frankly we have much much more entertaining and really more important things to do than with our time than to given oxygen to this particular group of individuals. Furthermore, why give the media (a few of whom would adore a MN are harridan-bullies type angle) anything to sidetrack them?

We are launching our We Believe You Campaign on Monday. We have each other to enjoy. People we do not need to do this!

On the question of your data:
I've been doing this (obviously) since we started (12 years), and I can say categorically that the only info we've ever passed on about a Mumsnetter was on one occasion when it was is clear she and her child were in danger. Other Mumsnetters had contacted the police about her abusive domestic situation and the police contacted us for contact details and I was happy to comply.

Do we routinely pass data on? No. Would we pass data on simply because a lawyer asked us to? No. Both Gina Ford's and Garry Lace's lawyers badgered us (with threats if we didn't) to pass users' details on and we didn't comply. Various companies who have been miffed about things written about them have made similar requests. We have never complied (and we would fight well on your behalf using all the channels open to us).

It's slightly worrying that, given our history and our privacy policy that some could think otherwise. If you really think that badly of us, it begs the question: why on earth are you here?

We are also committed to libel reform. The current laws are print laws for a digital age. We are viewed as a traditional print publisher when we are not one - we are hosting other people's thoughts and opinions, not commissioning, editing and publishing them. I want people to be able to raise concerns and speak the truth here and I hate the fact that we sometimes have to delete stuff because they are not our words and we don't know the truth. And I hate the fact that individuals and organisations know this and play on it by sending us threatening legal letters. The reason those legal letters work is that we simply could not fight every case and nor should we have to. It's not our case it's the authors!

Please don't have a go at us for this stupid and outdated law. We are paid up members of the libel reform campaign. If you are fed up with this situation then join up and help get those laws changed libelreform.org/
You are simply being naive if you think we or any website is going to ignore legal proceedings.

And as an aside, since this has become something of a baring of the soul, I think one or two on t'other thread have been bang out of order towards MNHQ and Helen and Olivia in particular tonight. I understand that feelings are running high but if you really think that poorly of us - and some have been extraordinarily aggressive - then why the heck are you here? Honestly why? I assume you value being here? Why are you being so rude to the people who are simply doing their best to follow our guidelines, explain what they are doing, and to facilitate your conversations?

Our moderators are not whimsical, or controlling or power hungry. They are dedicated and hard working and, quite frankly, really nice people. They are simply are trying their best to keep the conversation going according to our guidelines.

Mumsnet is not exclusively for like minded people. We believe being open to differing views is important for our long term health and vibrancy. Over the years a lot of folks have struggled with that idea and would rather we did things differently - that we banned difficult conversations and contrary people . But that would lead to something very different and stagnant and soulless imho. (Obviously am not talking about trolls and fascists here). Some of those people have moved on and some accept things as they are - namely that we are an open space to publically exchange thoughts and ideas to make parents' lives easier. That's what we're are trying to do. Nothing more, nothing less.

So the answer to the question on this thread - what would we do If F4J invaded again? (and let's be frank, there were only 2 or 3 involved in the "invasion") is that we would take the situation on it's merits. If they were here to engage in an honest and non-aggressive way we would let them carry on. If they came and spouted misogynistic crap, we would ban them. If it transpired that they came only to wind folks up and/or to promote one particular orthodoxy only and not engage in genuine debate we would also, once established, ask them to leave. We would at the same time, delete posts towards them that breached our guidelines.

I'm not gonna lie here - I know it's not what some of you would have us do. But we are what we are.

JustineMumsnet · 09/03/2012 02:35

Oh and I also think it's an appropriate time to bring this up again

JustineMumsnet · 09/03/2012 08:37

@Nyac

"F4J's only way to get noticed is to come up with stunts. A fight with Mumsnet fits the bill - but only if we comply. Many of you have commented that F4J are trolling and as we know, the first rule of trolls is DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS. I know it's tempting but by taking them on, you are totally feeding the trolls."

In your rules you say you ban trolls. If you're actually acknowledging that they are trolls and that they are coming here to troll and create publicity stunts won't you just ban them? Why all the stuff about "If they were here to engage in an honest and non-aggressive way we would let them carry on" when you've already acknowledged what they are up to and why they do it. It's contradictory.

WRT you having better things to do, I'm quite happy to wait for a reply to this for a few days/weeks. It's not urgent.

This is what I said Nyac:
If it transpired that they came only to wind folks up and/or to promote one particular orthodoxy only and not engage in genuine debate we would also, once established, ask them to leave. In other words it can take a while to discover people's motives and whether they are single issue bods or not, and we do like to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Furthermore we have no control about what happens off MN and eg taking the fight to other orgs facebook page is imo also counter-productive.

HelenMumsnet · 09/03/2012 10:53

@TunipTheVegemal

Please can someone clarify how the Facebook page works? Does MNHQ have the facility to delete messages and ban posters as they do on the site?

Yes we do. Please do let us know if you see anything on our Facebook page that we might need to look at.

HelenMumsnet · 09/03/2012 12:12

@HandDivedScallopsrgreat

Thank you Justine for your replies.

I just want to reiterate what Nyac and Tunip said. "Rise above it" and "take the moral high ground" have all been used by the patriarchy to allow men to continue with abuse and women to put up with it. In fact there is a very good thread in AIBU at the moment withich illustrates

Just to clarify, folks: when we posted last night to say "We probably prefer to 'rise above'", we were answering someone who asked us if we (MNHQ) were bothered about Mumsnet (as a brand/organisation) being slagged off.

Which is not at all the same as us saying we'd suggest you all rise above some of the arguments being made by F4J members.

We have no problem with any of you countering their arguments ? as long as, in doing so, you stay within our Talk Guidelines.

RowanMumsnet · 13/03/2012 12:14

@YuleingFanjo

why was SGB's comment removed? Wasn't she just saying that aligning yourself with the ideals of F4J as a father can actually work against you when persuing custody?

Hello

Not quite, I'm afraid. Parts of SGB's post implied that a significant number of F4J members are dangers to their ex-spouses and children.

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