Can we have or do we have a suicide thread policy for how MNetters should respond?

[HeadyEddie]

I've been out and see that the thread that was in Chat has been pulled, before I went out there had been some (I think) useful discussion on what is and isn't appropriate to do in these circumstances.

I can see that there is text at the top of the MH board which links to really useful helplines, but what should/shouldn't individual MNetters do when a worrying thread is posted? Does MN have a policy on it?

For example, lastnight a few posters wanted to get MNetters to link the thread on FB in the hope that someone that could help would see it, which myself and a few others said wouldn't be a good idea, and as far as I know that didn't really happen. If we had some MN guidance then it would be easier for individual posters to see what is the best course of action - even if the policy is just to report to MNHQ, be supportive and link Samaritans.

You see I am far more cynical than you. Because I have "known" people online only to discover that they were complete frauds. Even to the extent they had killed off their persona by suicide. So I don't think that being known means that someone is genuine. I'm not saying the op of the other thread was or wasn't, I honestly don't know, but I don't think that regular poster crying for help equals genuine vs unknown poster doing the same equals not, iyswim.

also, in the history of mn there has been just one instance of someone calling an ambulance where the suicide attempt was genuine. There have been a whole lot more where ambulances/police etc have been called where it turned out to not be the case...

yep, I do tend to give posters the benefit of the doubt and have recently reported a poster that Im not sure about, and feel utterly crappy about it because its quite sensitive. But, I do tend to trust the more prolific, longer term posters (esp those I have on FB) more. which is a terrible thing to admit, but there you go. And it is a bit ridiculous, given that CVQ, dizzymare and mamazon were all regular long-termers.

wannaBe I have seen you talk of that before and I understand your cynicism, but your were unnecessarily blunt in a couple of your comments. It's one thing being the voice of reason but some of what you said was accusatory and unkind.

Maryz - you know what else is interesting; people with different MN habits. People pop on as and when, and perhaps sat afternoon isn't prime MNing time for a lot of people. Your comment that people were just looking for excitement is a bit off.

I bumped, because it only took two seconds and could potentially help. I can only guess lots of other people thought that way also. I also suggested contacting the husband - lots of fb profiles have a 'married to' button, better perhaps to target him than the whole of fb, no?

despite my silly name I'm not cynical at all. Certainly not enough to avoid bumping much less cast doubt on a very sensitive thread. I will help someone if they appear to be in trouble. That's a very common reaction - yes I know it's a chink which can be exploited - but wanting to help, albeit on a very small scale, is a pretty admirable quality, on the whole.

An MN policy is a good idea to help seal the chinks - but belittling genuine MNers naturally kindhearted instincts (or naivety - whatever) leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

I don't think we need a 'policy' on this at all. People will respond how they see fit, you can't be telling everyone what they can or can't say on a given thread. You will get a mix of responses - that's the nature of the internet.

I'm someone else who bumped in the hope that someone who knew the OP would see the thread and get in touch with her. So, also not a random bumper looking for excitement Maryz.

maryz, I worry about that too. Ive changed my mind so many times about this, this morning. I tend to not post on those threads, because there is nothing I can say or do. I remember being suicidal and not being able to tell anyone, not even my counsellor, because I didnt want to burden other people any more than I already was. when things started to get better, I told my counsellor and he was horrified that things were so bad.

but when you feel that low, you dont believe that there is a different way out. and you wont believe people on the internet (well, I wouldnt have anyway) but had I read a thread like that back then I would have been unable to function and been pressing refresh constantly. it would have set me back months.

Yes, wannabe. Far better the one genuine person is not saved/heped so that X number of trolls aren't sucking people in.

Perhaps if you had been personally involved in such a genuine scenario you may think rather differently.

I know I do.

soupy, I really do see what you are saying. MN has pulled off some real feats in the past (I remember reading about the case you are referring to, it was before my time though) and far better save one life than protect thousands of ego's.

as I said, swinging back and forth.

I do actually think there should be some kind of guideline in sensitive situations like these that people don't post it all over other social networks.
Look what happened to Riven - that was completely ridiculous and very invasive for her.

We should (and I think did) learn from that, because it was mentioned on Memoo's thread when people started talking about linking to FB, twitter etc - but perhaps that should be a guideline because newer posters won't know about that.

What I do find mildly worrying is that people a) likened Memoo to known trolls (missed that, must have been after I went to bed, am very and that it happened and glad the thread was pulled); and b) felt the need to tell her off on her thread. Assuming that she is indeed real (which I do) and that she is in an extremely vulnerably place, wtf do you think that sort of comment is likely to achieve??

It's a known phenomenon that people with low self-esteem, depression and other mental health issues are quite capable of ignoring 100 positive comments and focusing in on the 1 negative, taking that as the gospel truth (because it chimes with their own skewed view of themselves) - and it could be enough to push them over the edge.

While we are not responsible for other users' mental health, we should at the very least be able to demonstrate sufficient sensitivity and emotional intelligence to be able to realise that, surely?

Perhaps in the case of suicide/emergency threads MNHQ could sticky them so they stay at the top without the ceaseless ghouls bumping. This would also mean that people would know that MNHQ were aware. If there was less bumping useful support would be more visible for the OP to see. And if it was stickied there wojuld be no need for all the threads pointing to the thread. And MNHQ could change thread title if necessary so that others who may be adversely affected can avoid if they choose.

What I do find mildly worrying is that people a) likened Memoo to known trolls (missed that, must have been after I went to bed, am very and that it happened and glad the thread was pulled); and b) felt the need to tell her off on her thread. Assuming that she is indeed real (which I do) and that she is in an extremely vulnerably place, wtf do you think that sort of comment is likely to achieve??

yes.

I was personally involved in that one case which is why I find this debate tasteless and disgusting.

I rather think that a person who is reading about and contemplating suicide quietly without any cries for help is, sadly, going to do it anyway. Unless someone spots it and steps in to help. And how are you meant to step in if cries for help are deleted with the rather useless advice of "phone the samaritans, dear".

Yes, Thumb it was me saying not to do the FB thing, when GrahamTribe suggested we all link to the thread on our FBs that night, I said we didn't want another Riven-gate. She said she thought it would be better to deal with the fallout if it happens rather than risk the alternative but I said that I didn't think that Memoo would cope with BBC and Sky news camped outside her house like Riven had to put up with.

That seemed to put people off, though later someone else wanted to do a blanket FB thing but I said that all you need is a quiet news day, a viral FB link and the next thing you know the DailyFail will be leading with the story 'Nationwide hunt for the suicidal MNetter'.

This is why I stated this thread we ought to have guidance about what is and isn't appropriate, if this had gone viral on FB the other night can you imagine the situation that Memoo might be in now? I know people mostly are acting with the very best intentions but you have to be mindful of what a can of worms you might be opening.

Exactly - couldn't remember it was you who'd said it but it was very sensible, Heady.

I think part of the problems is that if we don't delete these threads and we have the type of reaction that we had the other night then it makes the forum much more open to abuse by emotion-fuckery trolls. We've had plenty of them and they cause deep distress for those who have been drawn into their world. You know the type - pregnancy loss, baby loss, MH issues, DV situations - there have been loads.

Its a crude analogy, but its like the 'we don't negotiate with terrorists' stance some governments have. Whilst it makes it very hard in one-off individual circumstances it prevents many more being taken and held hostage.

I think when a suicide thread is started those that are first to respond should be supportive, urge the poster to contact some RL help and report it to MN. They can then send a gentle email saying that they don't feel the thread is appropriate because of the kind of attention it will draw and again urging the poster to seek RL help.

the thing with fb/twitter though is, even if there are guidelines that suggest linking to fb/twitter is a bad idea, there isn't actually anything you can do to stop people doing so. And once one person does, others will follow suit, and then it gets out of control. Whereas if threads are just deleted, even if someone sees it and tweets it, by the time most people click, the thread will be gone and there will be nothing to see...

"Your comment that people were just looking for excitement is a bit off." I don't think it is. I absolutely think that many posters bumped that thread out of genuine concern. But there were several posters marking their places and others that simply posted "bump" even when there had been clarification that the op was ok, so had clearly not actually read the thread with any level of concern - clearly there are people who do want to be a part of what goes on.

Lissie I think it was one poster who had likened it to cvq. I think that was on the basis that cvq would post dramatic threads and cause a stir and then come back and say everything was fine, and this op apparently has done the same. People will draw conclusions from those types of behaviors - rightly or wrongly, if someone habitually posts a suicide thread and then someone comes on and says they're fine there is going to come a point where people will either question whether the poster is just attention seeking, or whether they are even real. This is the internet, you can't prevent people from questioning - especially when there is A previous history on the part of other posters, and B, the poster in question has a similar history.

Iirc the poster who was saved knew people from here in rl. it was by no means the same as trying to get mn hq to track someone down/sending a viral campaign via facebook/twitter.

And yes, I do think that far more people could be damaged by these types of threads than could be helped.

I'm glad I missed all this.

It was linked on the Mumsnetters Group Page on FB, I've seen.

Wannabe Yes, even if there are guidelines it doesn't stop individual posters linking to FB/Twatter but it might make it easier to dissuade people from doing a blanket FB campaign. On the Memoo thread the suggestion was that everyone put it on their FB in case there are MNetters on FB but not on MN, so more ppl would see it.

"Iirc the poster who was saved knew people from here in rl. it was by no means the same as trying to get mn hq to track someone down/sending a viral campaign via facebook/twitter."
Yes, that was my understanding too but I can't remember the details.

I think, to an extent, that support from Mumsnetters on threads like these is rather enabling and overall not helpful, except of course for the one instance mentioned by Soupy upthread.

I DO NOT think they should be stickied by mnhq - how ghoulish.

If you really must post on them, do you not think repeating the mantra to ask for help in rl, or call the Samaritans is truly the only sensible and helpful thing a mumsnetter can do?

I hide them because I do not think there is a single thing I can do or say to help. There will be other people in the poster's rl who should be made aware of how that person is feeling.

Bibbity - the memoo thread was at the top of active convos without being stickied. People are obviously ghoulish anyway. I just thought that if it was stickied the ghouls wouldn"t need to keep posting "bump" which is what made up the vast majority of the thread.

If a thread is genuine (and we have to assume it is), surely it is better for the genuinely helpful advice to be easily accessible to the OP, rather than scrolling through pages of bumps.

I agree stickying seems really distasteful, but it would address a few of the problems with such threads.