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Europark - parking fine

19 replies

Jbck · 12/01/2006 18:46

Has anyone had a fine from these people? I got one today because my office car park was full & I was only going in for a few hours I chanced it. I came out 10 minutes after the ticket was put on, 15 minutes after the 4 hour limit. You never see wardens and the car park was empty about 20 cars in 300 spaces.
It's £30 in 14 days or £50 in 21 days. It says they may request your details from the DVLA & nothing else about enforcement really. Any advice?
Would you bother or just ignore it. TBH the person's writing is so bad you can barley make out my registration, I could always deny it was mine .

OP posts:
SoupDragon · 12/01/2006 19:56

Pay it. You incurred the fine legitimately, you have to pay it.

misdee · 12/01/2006 19:58

my dad got one from them once (think it was them) but the silly warden had forgotton to date it, so the ticket wasnt legal.

starlover · 12/01/2006 19:59

i would pay it! unless of course you want to end up paying the £50?

WigWamBam · 12/01/2006 20:02

You knew you were taking a chance by parking there, you knew you were over the time limit, so really you should pay up and put it down to experience. If you ignore it you will end up having to pay the £50 - it will be enforced, whether it says so or not and you don't really want to have to pay out more than you have to, surely?

Tortington · 12/01/2006 20:54

i'd be interested to know whether you can screw them over.

Tortington · 13/01/2006 00:11

found this:

Dear Sirs

Re: Penalty Charge Notice No. xxx

In demanding a fine for parking contraventions you are in breach of the Bill of Rights Act 1689 as you are exacting a fine or forfeiture without recourse to a court of law and I contend that this is illegal. The demand for forfeiture or fine can only be made by judgement from a court of law.

In addition I believe that the City of Sunderland Council do not have the appropriate legislation in place to enforce the decriminalised parking regime that came into force in February 2003.

In anticipation of your response that City of Sunderland Council and NCP do not issue fines but penalties, may I direct your attention to Chorley Borough Council?s and Parkwise?s similar response: "You and your counsel are correct in your summation of the Bill of Rights Act and no-one may issue fines except by the judgment of a court. However, this Council does not issue fines we issue penalty charge notices." The House of Commons Transport Committee term the monies collected as ?fines? as do all local authorities operating decriminalised parking regime and this negates the argument you may attempt to use.

On the basis of the above I request that if Sunderland City Council wish to further demand payment then you do so via a court of law.

Yours sincerely

Your signature

interesting and the second paragraph relates specifically to sunderland. however the "fines can only be collected through a court of law thing covers the country

Tortington · 13/01/2006 00:15

from another site:

Local Authorities covered by the above two schemes, are now acting unlawfully, since the Bill of Rights Act 1689 was specifically classified as a "constitutional Act". The Road Traffic Acts 1991 and 1994 others like it are, by contrast, "ordinary" Acts. Unless the road traffic acts expressly refer to the fundamental rights laid down by the Bill of Rights Act (which they do not), they must fall by the wayside since, according to the Divisional Court, the Bill of Rights Act cannot be impliedly repealed. It is a constitutional Act that protects our "constitutional rights".

So, if constitutional Acts like the Bill of Rights and the European Communities Act cannot be impliedly repealed, why are local authorities still collecting penalties from the public without conviction? Presumably, local authorities do so because they do not agree with the Divisional Court; they believe that the Bill of Rights Act was repealed impliedly by the Road Traffic Act.

Tortington · 13/01/2006 00:24

Proforma Letter - amend as necessary

Chief Executive [Address of Local Authority]

Dear [name],

Please find enclosed a copy of Parking Ticket [insert reference number] which I received on [date]. It was issued by [name of company issuing ticket] on behalf of [Local Authority] and is attempting to impose a 'Penalty Charge' of £XX (reduced to £XX if paid within XX days).

Upon checking the legislation, I was surprised to find that [Local Authority], or its agents, appear to be attempting to extort money from me in an unlawful manner. Please find enclosed an extract of the Bill of Rights Act 1689, enacted and formally entered into Statute following the Declaration of Rights 1689. I draw your attention to the section that I have highlighted:

"That all grants and promises of fines and forfeitures of particular persons before conviction are illegal and void".

This states that a conviction is necessary before a fine or forfeit can be imposed. As you will be aware, the Bill of Rights is a "constitutional statue" and may not be repealed impliedly. As stated in the "Metric Martyrs" Judgment in the Divisional Court (18th February 2002) by Lord Justice Laws and Mr Justice Crane (I will paraphrase, but have included a copy of the judgment's relevant sections 62 and 63):

62."We should recognise a hierarchy of Acts of Parliament: as it were 'ordinary' statutes and 'constitutional statutes.' The special status of constitutional statutes follows the special status of constitutional rights. Examples are the ... Bill of Rights 1689 ... 63. Ordinary statutes may be impliedly repealed. Constitutional statutes may not?"

I am not aware that the [insert name of relevant Act or Acts e.g. Road Traffic Act 1991, Road Traffic Act 1994, London Local Government Act 2000, etc] makes express reference to repealing the Bill of Rights Act 1689.

Therefore, it would appear that [Local Authority] and its agents have no lawful authority to demand money for an alleged infringement that has not been dealt with by a Court of Law. If you wish to proceed against me, please refer the matter to a Court of Law in an orderly fashion. Otherwise, the forfeit demanded of me is illegal and void.

Please also confirm to me in writing that you have advised the relevant officers of the Council and its agents that they are acting illegally by attempting to claim powers which are forbidden to them, and that all issuing of penalties is being done only after conviction by a Court of Law.

Yours sincerely, etc

Tortington · 13/01/2006 00:28

The judgement in the Metric Martyr's case of 2000 stated that to over-rule constitutionally im-portant acts (e.g. the Bill of Rights) any new law must specifically say it does so.

The Road TrafficAct 1991 does not make such a statement. Thus, the last 14 years of parking fines can be shownto be void.

Under de-criminalised parking, local councils pass appeals on to NPAS, a supposedly inde-pendent appeal body. However, NPAS is funded by a fee of 60p for each parking fine paid; howcan an appeal body be independent if it is funded by the very fines it hears the appeals against?NPAS is not independent

nicked the above from another site

Tortington · 13/01/2006 00:42

this is sodding BRILLIANT please read.

Sunday Telegraph
Christopher Booker's Notebook
13th February 2005

Pensioner challenges the power to penalise without trial
Two years ago, when Robert de Crittenden, a pensioner, emerged from Sandwell council offices in the west Midlands, he was irritated to find a £30 fixed penalty ticket on his windscreen. He little realised he was embarking on a battle which calls into question the legality of the entire principle of automatic penalties, which now earn local authorities and government departments hundreds of millions of pounds a year.

As a student of constitutional law, Mr de Crittenden was aware that under the 1689 Bill of Rights, it is fundamental to British law that no one may be fined or financially penalised unless they have been convicted by a court. When he inquired into the power of traffic authorities to levy automatic fines, he found it had been created by the Road Traffic Act 1991, in contradiction of the Bill of Rights.

But Mr de Crittenden was also aware of the historic judgment in the "Metric Martyrs" case in 2002, in which Lord Justice Laws pronounced that there were certain "constitutional statutes", such as the Bill of Rights, which cannot be set aside by subsequent legislation unless this is specifically stated. This was crucial to the argument whereby Laws upheld the conviction of the Metric Martyrs.

The law making it a criminal offence to sell goods in pounds and ounces was issued under the European Communities Act 1972. But the Martyrs' defence was that this had been overridden by the Weights and Measures Act 1985, which authorised continued selling in non-metric measures. By ancient tradition, when one Act says something different from another, the later Act, by the principle of "implied repeal", takes precedence. But Laws ruled that, since the European Communities Act was a "constitutional statute", it could not be overridden by the 1985 Act, since this had not made the point explicit.

After conferring with the British Weights and Measures Association (BWMA) and Neil Herron of the Metric Martyrs Defence Fund, Mr de Crittenden concluded that, if Lord Justice Laws was right, the 1991 Road Traffic Act could not implicitly repeal the relevant clause of the Bill of Rights, because, as Laws stated, this was a "constitutional statute". Either the automatic penalty system was illegal; or Laws was wrong, in which case the Metric Martyrs should not have been found guilty.

Using this argument, Mr de Crittenden refused to pay his fine unless Sandwell took him to court. Two years later they have still not done so. But the significance of his challenge can scarcely be overestimated. Since his legal argument began to be widely circulated, ever more motorists have similarly refused to pay fixed penalties in towns all around the country ? for example in Sunderland, where Mr de Crittenden was last week given another parking ticket, when he drove up to confer with Mr Herron in connection with this story.

The dilemma facing councils is stark. If they obey the law as it stands, they cannot impose parking tickets on hundreds of thousands of motorists without taking them to court. But if they do so, the court system would rapidly collapse. Furthermore the same applies to all the other official bodies that have jumped on the "fixed penalty" bandwagon, such as the Inland Revenue, which imposes an automatic £100 penalty for a late tax return.

If all these bodies imagine that, under the Laws judgment, they have a simple remedy ? namely to rush through an Act of Parliament explicitly overruling the Bill of Rights ? Mr de Crittenden has another trick up his sleeve. The Bill of Rights may have been enshrined in an Act of Parliament, but the Declaration of Rights on which it was based was a contract between the sovereign and the people. It is by that Declaration that the monarch occupies her throne and by which Parliament enjoys its power, and it cannot be repealed. Thus, if Laws is right, fixed penalties without conviction cannot be legalised. Either that, or the Metric Martyrs were innocent.

Avalon · 13/01/2006 01:40

Like it!

BudaBabe · 13/01/2006 08:23

Love all the legal stuff BUT....

Is Europark a car park? If so then Jbck "chanced" parking in a car park without paying - it wasn't on a public road or council property. Am assuming Eurpark own/lease/operate the car park - if then then are they not within their rights to levy a fine on someone who has not paid?

Jus interested!

SoupDragon · 13/01/2006 08:27

Oh for heaven's sake - if you overstay your time in a carpark, you get a penalty charge. It's not a surprise, it's posted on signs about the carpark, it's not rocket science, it is PITA but people should just pay up.

Tortington · 13/01/2006 18:48

and override this counties constitution soupdragon?

are our laws inot in place for a reason? is it not double standards that councils are allowed to ignore the rule of law and make millions out of it, whilst ordinary folk are compelled by rule of law

if this law is flouted whynot some others we just think are common sense?

Jbck · 13/01/2006 19:18

In my defence your honour, it is not a proper car park. It's one of these places outside a big DIY store, couple of carpet shops & a derelict building. The town where I parked has no pay & display type parking anywhere other than this one site, indeed, this one is only one of those '2 hours only' places you don't actually pay to park there. It was free all day until recently.
Thanks Custardo for all your research but I'm in Scotland so it may not apply.
I will wrestle with my own conscience but I am safe in the knowledge that I have never previously incurred a parking fine or any other road traffic penalty so I am not verging on the hardened criminal element.

OP posts:
Tortington · 16/01/2006 00:45

if the signs wernt clear then they are in the wrong. did you pay up?

Jbck · 16/01/2006 18:28

Custardo between you, me & the bedpost I'm ignoring it. Don't tell all the law-abiders on here or they'll beat us with big sticks When the attendant learns to write legibly then I'll pay attention. I'm waiting to see what happens. I could argue the toss, it was dark when I arrived & I couldn't actually see the signs, I checked this out today. I live 20 miles away so I could say it was first time I'd visited town. I actually thought it was over 4 hours so that's why I got caught out tbh. I'll not practice sewing the mailbags just yet.

OP posts:
Tortington · 16/01/2006 22:18

keep me up to date - love a screw the establishment thing

good luck

shhhhhhhh

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