Progress and perception

[Estherpologist]

Reading the current anal sex thread got me thinking.

Attitudes to sex change all the time. Whether it's about porn or anal sex or BDSM or gender fluidity or empowerment.
Personally, I think EL James has had a more positive effect of the world than Andrea Dworkin ever did, and certainly more positive than the Pope ever will.

It's too late to ask my grandma what attitudes to sex were really like in 1900 but I wouldn't be surprised if oral sex was as taboo then as anal sex is now. And I don't see there being more pressure for girls to have sex now than when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s.

Now women are allowed to like sex, or more importantly, to say no to sex. There are far better sex toys and porn made by women for women. There is still room for improvement, but I think we're in a better place now than we ever have been before.

Maybe my glass is half full because I'm sex positive and I only see positive attitude changes because of my own confirmation bias.

Discuss.

I totally agree about the saying no thing. I see my daughter actually under way less pressure to have sex than I was. At 13 I already felt so mixed up snd worried because many of my friends had already lost their virginity or had long term boyfriends with whom they did a lot of things. Now I see that would be seen as wrong by my daughter's peer group.

Most of my friends lost their virginity at around 14. I was nearly 17 and for certainly a good two and a half years had felt like the odd one out and there must be something wrong with me. It was as much nog being able to participate in the discussions about it all.

Now I feel girls have more of a sense of the value in not being pressured (by peers of boys) and I also think boys have been better taught to respect girls' wishes.

But alongside this of course you have the whole porn access thing running, and the social media appearance/self-presentation phenomenon. I think it's harder for women and men to be natural. And I dread to think what exposure to pong before any real sexual experience does. I'm scared it will rob new young adults of the chance to discover and decide for themselves.

For myself, I love the online interaction possibilities. And although at first wary, I'm now very into the self-presentation. It's great to use yourself as an art object. Feels good to look at yourself through a lens and see the great bits of you. Motivates me to work on other bits too. Including the look in my eyes. It's a new way to love and encourage and support and enjoy oneself. And express oneself sexually.

Mmm, I’m not so sure.

I think (male) attitudes towards women regarding sex are getting worse, not better.

When I was young i very rarely saw or heard boys in my age group speaking disrespectfully to girls or speaking disrespectfully about girls amongst themselves.

Now I’m older I have the unpleasant experience of a twice daily school run around boys and girls that age and if the small sample I am exposed to is anything to go by, boys now have no respect for girls whatsoever.
It is extremely alarming, I have witnessed boys as young as 12 harassing a girl about her small breasts.
I have overheard conversations about rape and all sorts of other deeply disturbing things.

I never used to have much issue with porn but i do feel that over the years it has become progressively more violent and ‘kink’ filled.
I really don’t feel as comfortable about it as I used to.
You can still find ‘normal’ stuff sure, but I feel overall porn is more extreme and violent now.

I think there is still a huge amount of body shaming going on, still a huge emphasis on being ‘sexy’ rather than smart.
I am disappointed to still see women on magazine covers made to look ‘sexy’; something very rarely, if ever, seen with men.

I think the old viewpoints of highly sexed men being ‘studs’ and highly sexed women being ‘sluts’ is still in abundance.

I think potentially dangerous practices are now slowly being marketed as ‘normal’, things like strangulation and anal (which does carry risks; look at all the porn actresses with prolapse)

No, I’m really not sure we are in a better position really.

This is an interesting one and l’m approaching from a female perspective.

In terms of acceptance of the bi and lesbian community, yes, l think we have made some progress. Likewise mother and baby homes have been confined to history.

But on other matters, we still have far to go and l question whether, from the history l’ve read, Ancient Rome and Ancient Greece was in fact more advanced than we are today.

The Me Too movement and the depiction and role of women in porn, show the problems very much there. In addition there are negative attitudes from other women. I was once told on MN that “we had names for girls like you when l was at school”.

Male language is also a problem. For example “lost” virginity. Yes it’s occasionally used about men, but rarely. “Lost” is so negative. When l became proudly sexually active nothing was lost.

Nice girls do not do those sort of things they are often told. Sex is about sharing and passion. Gender equality and mutual respect has got to be the starting point, regardless of whether it’s an hour of passion with an almost stranger or a long term relationship. Nothing wrong with either.

I've sometimes thought of posting a thread on the same topic but never had the courage.

I do think things have improved. While I accept that a lot of porn is horrible, the truth is that in a society with the view that sex should be enjoyed, there is going to be porn as it is part of sexual expression. That means - as with all things - there will be moral difficulties with at least some of it.

For me the never-discussed reason for all these improvements is birth control, the lack of which explains the suspicious view to sex held in most societies in the past. Without it, it can do a lot of damage. Now we all have the ability to relax and enjoy, but we are still working out precisely what this means. And in that respect I think we're considerably ahead of the ancient Greeks, leastways on what I've read about them. Their view, along with other ancient societies (like the Sumerians for example) didn't have a good concept of consent, servants and slaves - both male and female - were basically expected to put out for the master and society approved of this. Both Greeks and Romans had a very mixed view of man-to-man sex - good to be dominant - bad to be the recipient. So, their attitude to sex was entirely fused with hierarchy. On the upside, dreaming of having sex with gods was generally seen as propitious.

Where I have more difficulty is the relationship side of these changes. I've never been interested in sex with someone I'm not in love with. For me there has to be emotional connection so I suppose I'm a natural monogamist. Negotiating sexual relationships in modern times just sounds like it would be too exhausting for me. I'm male, and the prevailing wisdom is that men are up for it any time any where but I reckon there are plenty of others like me.

I do also wonder if we are moving into a time when people have less sex but more sexual experience (due to online stuff etc).