"If she didn't come, he didn't bang her hard enough"

[WickedLazy]

Said by male friend to me tonight. Or a variation of this. He said that he thought over 90% of the women he'd had sex with, had orgasamed just through penetration alone. I tried to explain how the clit works, and that most women can't orgasm without clit stimulation. I don't think he grasped what I was on about?

He argued that if you "bang a woman hard enough" she'll come. That's all it takes. Then he changed the subject. For me, just being pentrated for a long time can be quite tedious. And going harder or deeper isn't going to do much for me if it's past the 10 minute mark (10 mins of just pentration I mean). Are most of a womans nerves not in the first few inches of her vagina? This guy has a big penis, and I feel like he thinks that's all it takes? I imagine his technique outside penetration would be woeful.

So my questions, why do so many men not understand how to make a woman orgasm?? Is it ignorance, selfishness, indifference, or what? How likely is it this guy really made over 15 woman (that's a guess, possibly more) come just through penetration? I'm inclined to believe they've been faking it to spare his feelings? He also doesn't really believe in foreplay, or kissing during sex! Surely kissing and foreplay are what get most women ready for sex, are an integral part, and often how they orgasm? He said something once like "kissing is only for puppy love when you're a kid". Sex for him really seems to mean put penis in vagina and go.

Another question, do men generally actually enjoy foreplay, or is it something they tolerate to please the woman? Do they really want the kind of sex my mate seems to enjoy, but know that most women wouldn't tolerate that for long, would get sick of it, or don't want to be selfish?

[NeverDarkedOn]

90% of his conquests must have faked it

[Njordsgrrrl]

Contempt, Dogfish? To quote another feminist, Margaret Atwood: "Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them" Contempt isn't a word I'd use to describe my feelings on men as a class. As stated, I think women are incredibly forgiving and optimistic in the face of overwhelmingly negative statistics and life experience. I'm always giving them the benefit of the doubt as are many other posters and the majority let themselves down every time. Then of course it's the woman's fault for doing so in the first place.

[Njordsgrrrl]

TDHManchester, do you call that bullshit that you have to deal with out? I appreciate it might be a bit annoying rather than going along with it but it's the only way to change it I'd have thought. I'm a reader of a footfall forum as it happens 😎and it's really encouraging seeing men doing this to other men. Gives me (more) hope.

[WickedLazy]

"When ds is older I'm going to tell him that you cant just expect a few seconds of kissing and then shove it in! (Especially with a woman you haven't slept with before).
( I'm aware that he will put his hands over his ears in horror! )"

^This! He's only 6 atm, but when the time comes, there will be probably a few chats along these lines! He may be scundered at the time, but I think he'll thank me one day?

[TDHManchester]

Hi Njordsgrrl Well thats an interesting suggestion and its not something i would generally do but on rare occasions i have called bullshit. What does tend to happen though is that the group of men ,perhaps at another time,will scoff or denigrate one of their number for the exaggerate BS he has spouted at a previous chat.

Excessive BS and exaggeration can leave you ostracised. I know two different males at my place of work who,at different times, have been ostracised and sidelined,branded as lunatics, for the excessive BS they spout because everyone knows it is utter lies.

Perhaps these people are mad or have misunderstood the rules. Mantalk amongst other men can only flourish within certain parameters.

There are unspoken rules,a bit like when men go to the loo and have to decide what urinal to choose and how to behave !

Full marks though to those men who call out the bullshitters.

[Njordsgrrrl]

Thank you for your reply. Interesting to know!

[dogfish1]

Er, Njordsgrrrl the bullshit in question that TDH is supposed to call out is what exactly? Men talking about whether they'd shag this or that woman at work? In my limited personal experience men spend little time talking about this, and when they do it's in fairly respectful terms. And I've overheard conversations between women on the subject that were anything but, covering every anatomical detail. When this happens men are expected to suck it up because, of course, men don't whine and women objectifying men is fun and liberating, whereas vice versa it's sinister.

As for women fearing that men will kill them, yes it's all too true in some societies and that's a dreadful thing, but personally I don't know one woman with the slightest physical fear of her husband or who would tolerate any physical abuse. 40 years ago it might have been different, so there's some progress.

On the other hand I know a lot of women who keep a beady eye on their husbands' professional success, pay, practical skills and general masculine credibility.They don't usually hold back when they think you're lacking, in fact they're often far less supportive than your colleagues and friends.

[dogfish1]

TDH I agree, bullshitters and dickheads are usually exposed and called out pretty smartly.

In some quarters a misogynist mafia may flourish, but I've never seen it and wonder whether it's a convenient myth for some. The tone amongst men discussing women is usually tolerant, with real admiration when women do something, er, admirable. Not a million miles from discussing other blokes in fact.

[Graphista]

Dogfish if that's really been your experience you've been either extremely lucky or extremely unaware!

I've grown up in a Dv home and speaking to others it's not uncommon, I also know very very few women who have never felt in danger from a man, I don't think I know ANY who haven't been sexually harassed or assaulted.

[bengalcat]

Lol his statistic is closer to the wrong way round !

[WickedLazy]

"Personally I don't know one woman with the slightest physical fear of her husband or who would tolerate any physical abuse. 40 years ago it might have been different, so there's some progress"

Having left my ex, who was abusive for 7 years, I would say that a lot goes on behind closed doors. I was terrified at various points that he would kill me. I think the quote is accurate. Often, the trigger for him hurting me, would be because I laughed at him, or proved him wrong ("made a dick out of him", as he put it).

"1.3 million women experienced domestic abuse in the last year (for the year ending March 2016)"

"4.3 million women have experienced domestic abuse at some point since the age of 16"

"Domestic abuse related crime is 10% of total crime"

(Womens aid)

^And those are just the woman who spoke out about what was happening to them. And that's just in England and Wales, not counting Scotland or Northern Ireland.

[WickedLazy]

*women

[WickedLazy]

"In some quarters a misogynist mafia may flourish, but I've never seen it and wonder whether it's a convenient myth for some"

Without outing myself too much, I have five words for you "the orange order and paramilitaries". Primarily sectarian, but also have thier misogynistic undertones too.

[OrangesAndLemonsOnly]

Dogfish, with respect, but you are totally unaware of what it feels like from the female side. As an example, please read the story www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/12/11/cat-person

Especially note how the girl thought several times if she was safe with this ‘nice’ man, actually wondering if she could come to harm when alone in the car with him. I bet he had no such thoughts when alone with her.

Also note how she had to be careful not to upset him, how she was stressed about how to break up with him so he doesn’t get aggressive and lashes out at her. Remember, this is a nice guy and up to now we had no reasons to think he had any such tendencies. And then note the ending. She wasn’t far off with how things were likely to go.

This story is very true to life. I have been in this sort of situation before and I was thinking exactly what this girl was thinking, I.e. how to break up with the guy and not have him get aggressive towards me.

I am lucky to have a husband who has never resorted to physical violence towards me. But sadly I know many women whose partners did/ do. It is a lot more common than you think. Unacceptable and sad, but far from being eradicated, unfortunately. As a bloke you have never had to worry about these things, nor about walking home alone after dark, choosing your route carefully, not drinking and enjoying yourself as much as you like so as not to make yourself vulnerable etc etc etc

[OrangesAndLemonsOnly]

Because of fear, dogfish?
Because he made her very vulnerable and downtrodden emotionally, financially, professionally? You only have to read the abuser threads on here to see how difficult it actually is to break free. Even after it dawns on you that he is an abuser. It is far from simple and straightforward...

I thank Heavens I was lucky not to end up in the abuse situation. But I would never dream to dismiss women who are/were in these awful circumstances. It is not a simple case of telling him to stick it. Please realise this.

[dogfish1]

Oranges I read the New Yorker story. Not sure what the point was, but that chap obviously had a few problems, of which violence wasn't one. But I can see that potential violence on dates is much more of a threat from the female perspective. On average men are taller and heavier, and are also responsible for about 90% of all serious violence in the UK. I just don't know any long term relationships in which it has ever happened, or any women who would tolerate it even once. The relationship would simply be over and the guy would be a social pariah.

On the other hand I think you're off the mark when you say As a bloke you have never had to worry about these things, nor about walking home alone after dark, choosing your route carefully, not drinking and enjoying yourself as much as you like so as not to make yourself vulnerable etc etc etc. As a bloke, I'm more likely to be mugged, stabbed or seriously assaulted on the street than a woman is. Like most blokes I keep a very keen eye on who is ahead of me, who is behind me, and what sort of streets I'm walking through. I cross the road if I see someone dodgy coming along and I always clock who walks past me and whether they represent a threat. If the cops advised me not to get too drunk or to stay out of certain areas I would take their advice. Living in North London for 10 years I came within a whisker of serious assault several times. Whether you're male or female there are some bad dudes out there.

[Cupoteap]

One the bigger the cock, the bigger the knob who owns it

[Njordsgrrrl]

Oh I was thinking of Cat Person wrt this thread. The relatability from women and utter incomprehension of men is extremely telling.

[dogfish1]

Njordsgrrrl that's a poor substitute for an argument. Besides, there is only one man accused of incomprehension on this thread, namely me, not "men" as a group.

[OrangesAndLemonsOnly]

Nnord, it is telling, isn’t it? Dogfish, sorry but you didn’t spot what the issue was while all the women on this thread will be nodding away at this. It is one thing being sensible and aware of your surroundings and quite another thing feeling scared where men aren’t and avoiding doing stuff out of fear where men don’t.

Comment re it being easy enough to leave abusive relationship is ignorant in the least. As a woman, I don’t want my head smashed in when I announce the news. If I have children, I will worry if he will harm them as a result of my ‘assertiveness’. Not to mention that he would have isolated me from any friends or family I had. Or that I no longer have access to financial means to support myself etc etc It is far from easy to get out...

“Sleeping with the Enemy” with Julia Roberts is a good illustration of the case in point. She had to fake her own death to get away in the end, as previous attempts landed her in hospital thanks to her ‘loving’ H. Funny, the neighbours, colleagues or friends had no clue about this going on either.

[Njordsgrrrl]

Oh I am sorry, I obviously didn't make myself clear. I was referring to men's responses to the story on Twitter. There's a dedicated hashtag I believe.

[Njordsgrrrl]

And your arguments about being afraid and taking steps to prevent violence? Where is this threat coming from? Think about it. It's not from women. We don't cat call boys in school uniform, neither do we murder partners at the rate of two a week. Stats deny your anecdotal evidence.

[OrangesAndLemonsOnly]

No, Dogfish, it’s not just you . It IS men in general. I discussed with my H this sort of stuff and he had his eyes opened. He never saw it like women do or more precisely, he was not aware these issues existed.

Mind, he experienced being on the receiving end of sexual assault a few months ago when he was grabbed by the balls literally as he was carrying out his work duties. Funny, he didn’t feel flattered or pleased the woman was interested. He was proper shaken up!

I just said: “Welcome to a woman’s world. We have it like that all the time. And no, we don’t enjoy it either!”

[dogfish1]

Njordsgrrrl I have no doubt that thousands of basement-dwelling mouth-breathing haters from twitter wrote all kinds of tosh in response to the story. I don't stand by them for a second, but if you want to make an argument you can usually get evidence in support from weirdos on there.
It is an interesting story featuring two flawed characters, I don't think either of them comes across as particularly likeable, but he is much physically scarier than she is. I don't know why she went to his house so soon and, having got there, had sex which she didn't want. If I was gay and had pulled a 17 stone rugby league player, I would take it pretty damn slow - mainly from fear, Oranges. Except being a bloke, I would probably call it caution.