"If she didn't come, he didn't bang her hard enough"

[WickedLazy]

Said by male friend to me tonight. Or a variation of this. He said that he thought over 90% of the women he'd had sex with, had orgasamed just through penetration alone. I tried to explain how the clit works, and that most women can't orgasm without clit stimulation. I don't think he grasped what I was on about?

He argued that if you "bang a woman hard enough" she'll come. That's all it takes. Then he changed the subject. For me, just being pentrated for a long time can be quite tedious. And going harder or deeper isn't going to do much for me if it's past the 10 minute mark (10 mins of just pentration I mean). Are most of a womans nerves not in the first few inches of her vagina? This guy has a big penis, and I feel like he thinks that's all it takes? I imagine his technique outside penetration would be woeful.

So my questions, why do so many men not understand how to make a woman orgasm?? Is it ignorance, selfishness, indifference, or what? How likely is it this guy really made over 15 woman (that's a guess, possibly more) come just through penetration? I'm inclined to believe they've been faking it to spare his feelings? He also doesn't really believe in foreplay, or kissing during sex! Surely kissing and foreplay are what get most women ready for sex, are an integral part, and often how they orgasm? He said something once like "kissing is only for puppy love when you're a kid". Sex for him really seems to mean put penis in vagina and go.

Another question, do men generally actually enjoy foreplay, or is it something they tolerate to please the woman? Do they really want the kind of sex my mate seems to enjoy, but know that most women wouldn't tolerate that for long, would get sick of it, or don't want to be selfish?

[dogfish1]

OK, it's true for a small minority of very unfortunate people in ours if that helps, although I think that's implicit tbh. Not sure why you're suggesting I say otherwise.

I would bet 100 to 1 that no woman I know is secretly tolerating domestic violence from her partner. Of course I'm not secretly recording 30 or so different couples. But the women I know and work with don't take any shit. An abusive man would be kicked out into a bedsit, in the divorce court and paying child support in no time.

[WickedLazy]

"As for women fearing that men will kill them, yes it's all too true in some societies and that's a dreadful thing"

In some societies. Just not ours?

And you think it wouldn't be tolerated. If the woman is tolerating it, she's not going to be telling anyone about it. As I said before, a lot goes on behind closed doors.

[dogfish1]

Of course it happens and I wouldn't dream of denying or minimising it! My point was only that it wouldn't be tolerated by anyone I know.

[WickedLazy]

Sorry, trying to do two things at once, I meant denying that domestic abuse happens...

[WickedLazy]

Denying that domestic abuse doesn't happen in our society, isn't respectful though. It's ignorant.

[Toffeelatteplease]

I've heard men talk shit about what women like

I've heard woman talk shit about what women do and dont like.

Theres a fair amount of that on this thread. Everyone is different Foreplay's nice, but Id most likely to get bored or painfully uncomfortable very quickly with someone trying to get me to come through clitoral stimulation. For me as hard possible for as long as possible would be . Whose to say he hasn't mostly been with that kind of person.

Or he could be talking rubbish assumptions. Much like anyone on this thread saying no woman likes....

Usually I just enjoy it when people talk shit.... sometimes I tell them she maybe they might think twice in the future. But they are probably so entrenched in they assumptions that they will assume the person questioning them is talking crap.

[dogfish1]

Wicked I have no wish at all to see you or any other person doing more than their fair share of domestic drudgery. My mum did far too much of that. Never again!

Nothing wrong with a robust debate though, in a spirit of respect.

[WickedLazy]

"Utterly disgusted and quite alarmed by your attitude dogfish"

^This. Shall I go back to the kitchen now, and let you pontificate in peace?

[dogfish1]

Wicked I don't see the need to make this personal, sorry.
Oranges, noted. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

[WickedLazy]

Why does it feel like dogfish is mansplaning a bit regarding the story in the link? I imagine if we were all in one room, he'd be standing over us, one foot resting on something, tapping his glasses on his chin, pontificating to all us vapid females.... Different attitude to the other male pp? Has something in this thread or that story hit a nerve?

Every single woman you know is a ballbreaking, money grabbing bitch? Or do you just hate all women regardless? You sound like a bit of a snob too? Like no one you associate with, could possibly be like that.

[OrangesAndLemonsOnly]

@dogfish

Well then, let’s agree that your understanding of the story is different to mine. Naturally, you would ‘get’ the man’s thought processes better while the same could be said about me having a closer idea to what the female protagonist went through. I categorically do not agree with you it was no big deal for her to let him use her body when she didn’t want sex. It IS a big deal for a woman. We need to be in control of our bodily autonomy. It was unquestionably a violation whether you agree or not. The story does not sound too fictional to me. I had similar scenarios in real life and had to walk on egg shells so as not to upset the rejected party. Because I feared what he could do. I absolutely relate to this.

[dogfish1]

Because that's not what the story says. Nor does it say she was traumatised afterwards. I think you're assuming it must have been fear, but I don't think the story suggests that at all. She wanted to avoid an awkward scene, which isn't at all the same as being physically afraid. She is so keen on avoiding awkwardness that she can't even dump him by text afterwards when there is no risk - her friend does it. The behaviour of this fictional woman has very little in common with the real world, in my experience. I have dumped and been dumped by text loads of times and it's usually very blunt.

I agree, she could have been afraid but the story doesn't say that so we can't know. Perhaps your argument is more that any woman would be afraid in her situation, in his house, so would always feel compelled to have sex. That's slightly absurd, and if so I don't see why she would have gone to his house to begin with - it was her suggestion, after he suggested going to hers.

Overall, I think she comes across as a flake, and he as a sad loner.
But she is less of a victim than you give her credit for. She breezes through it whereas he is obviously lonely and makes a fool of himself sending idiotic texts afterwards. Apart from sending the texts he does nothing threatening at all. If she had send him a few abusive texts there wouldn't be a story - at least not one you'd be interested in, because it wouldn't fit your slant of woman-as-victim.

[OrangesAndLemonsOnly]

Dogfish, thank goodness I have not experienced being debased in this way and I pray I won’t in future. It would be crushing and I would want to scrub my skin clean of him until it bled! Can’t even bear to think about such a situation 🤦‍♀️

How do we know it was out of fear? Just because he was bigger than her? I think she had sex because at the start she half wanted to and then once they got into it she didn't want to cause a scene.

Exactly, she didn’t want the repercussions if she stopped it. My point precisely. And she didn’t know what he was capable of. Could have turned pretty nasty, and she is on her own with him behind a closed door. Why don’t you agree it was fear? It is clear to me...

[dogfish1]

How do we know it was out of fear? Just because he was bigger than her? I think she had sex because at the start she half wanted to and then once they got into it she didn't want to cause a scene. Quite different to being physically afraid. I think she had a rubbish sexual experience and he was inept, but it wasn't characterised by fear, coercion or intimidation. To the extent you think it was I think you're projecting your own experiences onto it.

[OrangesAndLemonsOnly]

Dogfish, sorry but I beg to differ. He did turn aggressive (without prior warning I agree). She was indeed debased by allowing him to use her body out of fear when she didn’t want to have sex. All too familiar to a woman. So....

[dogfish1]

Oranges I wouldn't say he was threatening even by text except at the very end. True, he asked completely inappropriate questions about her personal life. She should have just blocked him, and would have done in real life, but that wouldn't have made such a good story.
He was in no way threatening before she went to his house, or while there, except by virtue of being bigger than her. He sent some rude texts later, mainly because he was the dumpee. Could easily have been the other way round. Overall the story was overwrought, melodramatic and designed to make her look like a victim. Quite how she was physically "debased" escapes me. She chose to have a crap shag with a guy she hardly knew, happens all the time.
Perhaps somewhere in the UK women go to the homes of men they don't much fancy after two dates and once there unwillingly have sex they don't like, but not where I live.
Some women are emotionally tough but enjoy playing the victim, and I think that came out in this story.

[NewLove]

All these women who fake really do the rest of us a disservice... As do all the mothers who do everything for their sons to the point they expect it from their partners

[OrangesAndLemonsOnly]

Oranges he was never actually violent, nor threatened to be after she dumped him. He just sent an abusive text message at the very end. Apart from that the string of messages would have been unremarkable

Well, it’s not how I interpreted the situation. I bet that 20 y.o. girl was relieved to be sitting safe in her dorm, with her friend next to her when the rejected bloke’s attack started. Notice, he was ok to start with, quickly turning nasty, demanding and attacking her over text. There is no way she would have knowingly put herself at risk of this at his house. She would rather have sex with him while repulsed by him.

I agree he was affected a lot more than she was, he opened up to her to be so coldly and cruelly rejected. Really it was a lose-lose situation, she was used and debased in the physical sense, and he was denied even basic dignity during the breakup. However that does not change my point that he turned aggressive while she didn’t.

Guys can often be more fragile emotionally, true. Us, women, are made of tougher stuff in that respect.

[Graphista]

But you DID victim blame dogfish can you really not see that???

And no men who kill their partners DON'T usually spend many years in prison. Sentencing and time actually served for violent offences in this country is woeful. They're usually convicted of manslaughter not murder and that gives judges more leeway to give shorter sentences and of the sentence given few convicts serve even half that time. So there's little to no deterrent.

[dogfish1]

Graphista I don't doubt that these cases happen and it's easy to see how. I would support tough sentencing for the perpetrators and would never agree with blaming the victim. The vast majority of men who murder their partners end up spending many years in prison - as they should.
My point is only that it's a long way from my experience, where many women I know seem to have a sort of amused contempt for their husbands, tolerate them for about as long as they behave themselves, and are acid tongued about their weaknesses. The blokes put up with it because what else can you do and divorce is bloody expensive. There is a journalist and novelist, Allison Pearson, who has made a fortune out of this kind of thing. If she were a bloke writing contemptuously about women she would rightly be a shot down.

[dogfish1]

Oranges he was never actually violent, nor threatened to be after she dumped him. He just sent an abusive text message at the very end. Apart from that the string of messages would have been unremarkable if it was the other way round. They slept together once then split up and one of them was vulnerable and got possessive and upset. Happens all the time. In that story despite being only 20 she was obviously a lot mentally stronger than he was.
But I agree there was the potential for violence, and in the relationship context it's a much bigger risk for women because they are smaller, cannot physically rape a man and because the very things that attract many women to men - size and strength - also make men physically dangerous. So I agree, warn your daughters about this.
Meanwhile I hope you also warn your sons that their risk of being stabbed or killed by another man is far higher than if they were a woman. And also that their physical strength is not very useful if that man has a knife, and it doesn't equate to mental strength or sanity. Like the guy in the story, they may look big and tough but they are far more likely to jump off a bridge.

[Graphista]

Utterly disgusted and quite alarmed by your attitude dogfish.

Dv rarely takes place in public. When it dies the victim has usually by that point been downtrodden by years of emotional, mental, financial as well as physical abuse.

"Why don't you just leave?" Is unbelievably crass and ignorant. It is NOT that simple. In addition the time a woman is building up to leave - even if she doesn't say so - is the most dangerous. Many perpetrators don't quit after a woman's left either. My mother stayed because my father threatened not only her but his kids and I have no doubt he would and could have

A found us
B killed us
C got away with it.

Those stats on 2 a week - large proportion of those are women killed by EX partners - even ones who have already served time for battering them. Then there's the ones that again despite police and even prison records for Dv still get unsupervised access to their kids and kill their kids and usually themselves too - to punish their ex.

Also these people are not initially abusive - they're charming, attentive, generous, thoughtful... Until they feel they have their victim in the right place mentally. Then it starts slowly, insidiously - it doesn't usually start with a hit or even a slammed door - but by undermining - little digs about their victims worth, their appearance, how lucky they are they deigned to date them, to marry them.

Lots of Dv doesn't start until the victim is pregnant an incredibly vulnerable time for a woman physically and emotionally.

Read up on cycle of abuse, how abuse begins, red flags,

Not to mention women like myself who have been conditioned by their own family background. I THOUGHT I'd chosen someone the complete opposite of my father, not a big drinker, not overly confident, not particularly obviously manipulative, not possessive... Didn't stop him shoving me into a glass wall unit when I was 4 months pregnant, grabbing me by the throat, kicking me in the shin while holding our child...

Dv and indeed all violence against women will never be truly addressed until men get it - most women already do.

[OrangesAndLemonsOnly]

Dogfish, I agree with you that a man’s world is more violent. The difference is men are better physically equipped to put up resistance and fight. For a woman, she will often make the situation worse for herself if she fights back. We know not to. We try to avoid dangerous situations if possible even if it means curtailing our freedom. When in a dangerous situation, women often freeze or try to act normal and nice not to exercebate the damage to be done to them. I hate it! But you cannot change the objective fact that physically we are weaker, neither can we demonstrate violence in the same way men can. In general.

I do not doubt for a second there are lovely men out there who will treat a woman like a queen. But sadly, there are enough of the other sort to be wary if you are a woman.

[OrangesAndLemonsOnly]

Well, I do distinguish fear and caution

To answer your question why she went to his house, she fancied sex with him after having a few drinks. She was not able to stop midway, get up and walk out the door because see the ending. She would have had the reaction in person rather than over the text. She didn’t feel safe on her own in this man’s house in a place she didn’t know. Note she realised she didn’t want it early on, before the actual sex, but she took pains to not let it on, be nice and normal, say all the things he would expect to hear when in the car on the way back and when parting. Caution my arse, if this isn’t fear, then what is?

I agree she is not particularly likeable, but the guy never felt threatened by her, she didn’t call him ‘whore’ or acted like he was her property now they’ve slept together. The guy did. He demanded answers, he was threatening towards her after she tried to walk away, he was enraged she was with some other bloke at the bar.

As a woman I experienced this in real life. Not nice, and as sensible and cautious as I may be, he can still turn violent/ abusive towards me if he doesn’t like what I say or do. Women don’t tend to react in this way.

By no means, I am not tarring all men with the same brush here. But it is a real risk nevertheless. I will be talking to my daughter about it while I am not half as concerned wrt my sons. They won’t face these sort of challenges, fortunately for them.

[dogfish1]

BTW of course I am not denying that men commit the vast majority of sexual crimes - only that they are in a small minority as victims of it, unlike other categories of violent crime.