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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

So which teachers worki the hardest...

65 replies

mnistooaddictive · 29/06/2010 10:40

I have ruffled a few feathers on aniother thread by suggesting that RE teachers DO NOT have the biggest workload! I am sure they work hard but don't all teachers? I am a Maths teacher myself and although I often ended up doiung extra classes every day of the week I would never dare to suggest I work the hardest.

My vote goes for Drama/Dance/music teachers. They have the same issues as RE teacghers with huge numbers of classes meaning huge numbers of reports but they have crippling extra curricular demands. Those amazing school productions/choirs/orchestras take hours of time including evenings weekends and often precious sleep time. I just want to say I appreciate you!
Anyone else want to have a vote?

OP posts:
TheFallenMadonna · 29/06/2010 20:51

Anyone teaching outside their specialism...

weegiemum · 29/06/2010 20:56

Teachers who take over from a crap teacher! I did this once, went in to a single teacher department where the previous incumbent hadn't done any work for 10 years .....

It was a nightmare.

Geography, btw!

MmeRedWhiteandBlueberry · 29/06/2010 21:00

I am inclined to think that RS teachers have it relatively easy (having to teach all pupils withstanding) because their examination classes are very straightforward - here are the stock answers so learn them.

I know that at my school, RS results are usually the best - 90% A/A* and the rest Bs (non-selective school). From my observations, RS is the easiest class to 'spoon feed' at GCSE. Much of what they teach is of interest to teenagers especially issues to do with the start and end of life, and ethics such as world poverty.

TheFallenMadonna · 29/06/2010 21:02

I opened an RE revision book that one of my year 11s had and one of the headings was "funerals are sad". Now obviously I know there's more to it than that, but it did make me laugh

MmeRedWhiteandBlueberry · 29/06/2010 21:06

I think that History and Geography have their elements of being easier to teach. They typically have GCSE and A-level questions where you 'answer any 2 questions out of the five in the paper'. This essentially means that the teacher can teach their areas of interest and passion and ignore the bits they are down on.

You can't do this in Science - you have to teach the lot and if there is something you don't like, then tough. The pupils pick up on the parts of the curriculum the teacher doesn't like and there is a consequent lack on enthusiasm passed on.

Whinge, whinge, whinge.

Seriously, I wouldn't trade my subject. I love it, and don't try to compare it with any other teachers. If I judge other teachers, it is on their non-teaching workload.

Lucycat · 29/06/2010 21:10

We are all marvellous and we all work equally hard...... - well not all the staff at my school work equally hard but that's down to ndividuals not subjects.

In terms of 'choosing our favourite bits' we still have as much content to cover - we can just do it in much more depth - Geography here btw

Tanga · 29/06/2010 21:10

Anyone working in Core subjects - all the pressure for results, all compulsory subjects, always the focus for inspections - but yeah, particularly English teachers - no readers for the exams, whole school Literacy, Spelling Bees, and all that marking. And then APP.

TheFallenMadonna · 29/06/2010 21:12

Ah, we APP too you know (Science).

mamalovesmojitos · 29/06/2010 21:14

english, music and drama i think. all teachers work hard though!

MmeRedWhiteandBlueberry · 29/06/2010 21:19

For non-core subjects, we often say that they get the pupils who actively choose their subjects.

What about the pupils who do not shine in anything. They might get rejected from MFL, history, music. What are they left with? They may end up in Art without much aptitude, a tech subject, or a new subject to their key stage (eg Business studies). Their teachers have a job on their hands. Certain subjects, eg ICT, have far more than their fair share of 'difficult' pupils.

Lucycat · 29/06/2010 21:22

ahhh yes the dreaded 'Motor Vehicle' class - the cover lesson from hell.
I can put petrol in my car and top up the screen wash but that's about it!

and they do attract a certain type of student.

FolornHope · 29/06/2010 21:22

english ones
blardy hell

Helokitty · 30/06/2010 21:26

I was the RS teacher in the other thread who said I thought RS teachers work bloody hard. Please note, I didn't say they work THE hardest, but that they can often have to work harder than most others in terms of marking, parents' evenings and so on... I think English teachers have to work bloody hard too.

I think for all subjects there is a rub, and a give...

For example - with PE - the rub is that you have to do lots of after school clubs, but the give is virtually no marking. Therefore, a lot of PE teachers I know manage to work a very packed in 9 - 5 job, but take very little home.

I think all subjects have their 'rub' the bit that is the hardest about teaching that subject and their 'give' the thing that is easiest.

Now, with RS - the 'rub' is the fact that you tend to (along with other subjects like Drama) only teach students for 1 hour per week, whereas in the schools I taught in, most other lessons such as Geography and History would teach students for 1.5 hours a week. Thereby, at KS3 at least, you tend to see a lot more students per week. And, if you teach in high achieving academic schools with high standards (like I have done), then that means more marking, more reports, more parents' evenings and so on... Simply because of the increased volume of students.

Then, the schools I have taught in have expected RS teachers to offer extra lunch time classes to allow students to bump up their short course GCSE to full GCSE and all the extra work that goes along with that - but this is just an extra, not timetabled of course!

The other rub, I have found with RS, is that as a subject without a national curriculum there can be very few resources on a particular topic. I'm not talking unsuitable books that you need to adapt, but literally for some points that your particular LEA might have dreamed up, there may be nothing at all on that and so, you might well have to research the lesson and write all the resources from scratch. This can be very time consuming, but usually is sorted after a few years.

Now, the 'give' for RS teachers is that you have less planning to do - because you can, in effect, recycle the lesson. I acknowledge that. But, In my fourteen years of experience, I have found that most teachers (from all subjects) after a few years of teaching, tend to recycle last year's lesson plans and just tweak them for the current class. I know very few experienced teachers who completely rewrite their lesson plans each year. Most teachers say adapt their lesson plans from previous years, so the notion that RS teachers have this gain, is in my opinion not much of a 'gain' because relatively speaking, as an experienced teacher planning takes up relatively little of my time. I think most experienced teachers agree with that.

Thus my point is that RS teaching can be time heavy, because the things that you invest the initial time in and then re-use year after year (schemes of work, lesson plans etc) so are not time heavy for an experienced teacher - the RS teacher gains in, but the aspects of teaching that are very time heavy each year (marking, report writing, parents' evenings) - there are no short cuts to doing this properly (if you work in a good school, and do a good job), and so the work load for this for the RS teacher is constantly high.

But I did not say that we work the absolute hardest, just it is a bit of a cinderella subject because you do have to do so much more marking, report writing and so on, yet everyone just dismisses your subject out of hand (as has been seen on here and the other thread!)

Helokitty · 30/06/2010 21:31

The other thing that can be hard about RS teaching, is that often there is only one specialist teacher in a school, and the rest of the time is made up with teachers who teach an hour here or there amongst their other subjects, because they have it free on their timetable. This means that you can (and I have frequently) had to hand hold the other (geography, history, Business studies teacher), to literally teach them the subject matter before they teach it to the class. It is not their priority, understandably so, and so the responsibility often falls on the RS teacher to make everything available for the non-specialist who will often do no more than the bare minimum for this subject they do not really care about.

mnistooaddictive · 01/07/2010 08:31

Sorry Helokitty you didn't say you work the hardest.
As a Maths teacher I have also had to handhold nonspecialists teaching maths. I know this sounds arrogant but it takes more time to help someone teach a core subject that parents are all over than to teach RS.
Can I also mention science teachers who seem to have a new curriculum every few years so there option to recycle lessons is seriously reduced. We have also had this in Maths where the whole scheme of work has been adapted!

OP posts:
Helokitty · 01/07/2010 18:09

" it takes more time to help someone teach a core subject that parents are all over than to teach RS"

But I think that depends more on the type of school you work in, rather than the subject. From your other thread, I'm guessing I've taught in very different types of schools than you.

The schools I have mostly taught in, have been very high achieving academically, and the parents can sometimes want to micro manage all aspects of their children's education - it is not the preserve of the core subjects (which technically, RS is btw, as it is not a national curriculum subject . But equally, the school I trained in, the parent's couldn't give a nat's arse about their child's education, not even maths! So there was none of the pressure that you mention. I even remember one parent bemoaning what was the point of maths (at GCSE level), because "they never use any of it when they leave school anyway" But that was a very different type of school.

Parents' level of engagement will vary because of the type of school you are in, for some they will be interested in all aspects - like for example, in mine - every report had to be hand written and individual (even if you were writing 200+ reports for that year group), and every homework had to be a full substantiated homework - otherwise parents would, and did complain! But then there are other schools where parents couldn't give two hoots about school at all - that depends on the school, not the subject.

I still stand by the statement that I made from one RS teacher to another (potential) RS teacher, that RS is so bloody difficult / cinderella subject because there are so many different demands made on RS teachers, that just get dismissed out of hand, because 'RS is an easy subject' but without really knowing or understanding actually what it is we do!

janeite · 01/07/2010 18:16

I think most teachers work hard. But I have to say that being an English or Maths teacher in a National Challenge school is almost certainly fairly low in the perks stakes, right now. And out of those, English teachers get much, much higher marking loads.

pointydog · 01/07/2010 18:36

lolol @ PE teachers having to 'do a lot of motivating'. Aye right. Tricky business.

English innit

Fink · 01/07/2010 19:18

I teach MFL and DH teaches English, I think both are hard! I've also taught History and RS, both hard work but not as bad (RS was in an RC school though, so 6 specialists and a lot of SLT support).

Points for MFL:

  1. maybe some areas are different, but all the schools I've worked in in 2 regions you spend a dispriting amount of time and effort trying to convince pupils and parents that languages are useful/important/worthwhile.

  2. also a lot of essays once you get to AS & A2, but you have to mark language as well as content very carefully.

  3. expectation that you will at least take part in and preferably organise overseas residential trips.

I do love it though - am working in school as a non-teacher atm and looking to get back into teaching, wouldn't want to do anything else but work with young people.

daisymiller · 01/07/2010 19:24

What a daft thread, surely it depends on the teacher, rather than the department.

I teach RE, I work very very long hours because of my working markload - I have colleagues in my department who work less. I am sure there are colleagues in English who work as hard as me or perhaps harder. I also do all the extras - coach a sports team, go out on duke of edinburgh, run lunchtime clubs and help out with drama productions.

I would not want to teach primary for all the tea in china though.

Goblinchild · 01/07/2010 19:27

The SENCO at my son's school works her tail off, at weekends and in the holidays as well.

daisymiller · 01/07/2010 19:28

I agree it also depends on the school. I have been in my school for years - it is a very high achieving one and my department leads the way in that. So our workload is huge. But perhaps the spotlight is not on us as much as Science, Maths and English so the pressure is less.

I have taught years ago RE in a less academic school and although I worked hard it could have been a walk in the park. No one cared what I did.

I have friends who are in the core subjects in National Challenge Schools and they do have the raw deal.

BuzzingNoise · 01/07/2010 19:29

English teachers (me!)

MmeRedWhiteandBlueberry · 01/07/2010 19:36

Another burden of MFL teaching is the actual pace of the lessons, and all the drama/actions/pulling faces that has to be done.

daisymiller · 01/07/2010 19:37

I observed an MFL teacher once - it does look exhausting.

I guess there is a reason why we all teach what we do and as long as we are happy it does not matter who works the longest, shortest or smartest.