rant about French teaching

[cory]

Parents evening today. Have to say I have been wondering for a while why dd (a bright girl who has shown a definite gift for languages in the past) has not learnt enough French in two years to stick a sentence together and why she has such an appalling pronunciation.

Well, we spoke to the French teacher and I can certainly tell where the pronunciation is coming from. It was dire. Like a parody of an English person speaking French! According to dd, she (the teacher) did not have enough French to understand the guided tour of the bakery on their French day trip; she had to call for assistance.

Dd is in top set, and it seems they've been given the only incompetent French teacher in the school because they are supposed to muddle through anyway. Teacher told us that the pupils will be learning the imperfect tense next year "but not all of them will get it because it is very difficult, but I think corydd might". (Yes, you bet she will! She is getting it as soon as I can go out and buy her a French grammar!) I did mention that I had concerns about dd's pronunciation and she said to dd "well you have to listen to how I say it and say it like me: "chattow" "(I think she meant chateau). She was not joking. She was seriously not joking.

I can't really do anything about this, can I? I can't see myself going into the school and telling them that their teacher is incompetent. I just have to fume and rant in silence, don't I? Oh yes, and stock up on French films.

I know it wouldn't really be any better to give the incompetent teacher to the bottom set. But then again, aren't top set likely to be the people who might actually want to do French A-level, or even a degree in French? Why should that option be taken away from them? There is no way dd would pass an oral on what she is learning from this teacher.

Could you speak to the head of French/MFL about your concerns? (heaven forbid this is the head!)

This teacher may be part of the languages department and have another language as a specialism.....French teaching may have been forced on her.....therefore speak to the head of department and raise your concerns.

You need to raise this with the head and if you get no joy the governors. It annoys me no end to see teachers teaching things they can barely do themselves.

Part of me knows you are right, part of me feels I really don't want to rock the boat (first school that has been accepting of dd despite medical problems). But I really ought to, oughtn't I?

Is your dd in KS3 or 4?

not a solution to this problem but the BBC languages minisite has some v good conversational material which will help with her oral and listening skills. I am using the Spanish one called Mi Vida Loca with my yr 8 bottom set who only do enrichment in Spanish.

I have also used it with a top set yr 9 for very different reasons and with much success too. It appeals to different ages and abilities for different reasons.

BTW, i am a Spanish specialist with French as a second and agree that the teacher sounds like she has been given more than she can take on.

She's in Yr 8, foxy. I'll look up nthat website, sounds good. I think having our own French lessons at home is definitely going to have to be the solution.

Dd says she only teaches French, which makes sense: if she spoke any other European language well she would not be making these typically English error (diphthong instead of long vowel etc) and would not find the imperfect unsurmountably difficult.

Cory, no help whatsoever but is it possible that as a language bod yourself you have higher expectations? (I know I'm a bloody 'mare for dd's English teachers!! I'm sure they hide in cupboards when they see me coming)

Looking back from my vantage point of French and Spanish degree I know now my teachers were pretty mediocre, I suppose (as we've discussed on many other threads about language teaching) because unfortunately so many language specialists go on to do jobs other than teaching. )

It's one thing though for the teacher not to be that brilliant, but obviously if it's holding back a child with a potential gift for languages then something needs to be said, no matter how sniffy they might be about it. I would definitely mention it, in a diplomatic "dd doesn't really feel as if she is making as much progress as she though, being in the top set and all" kind of way to start with, and then if I got no joy I'd say "she's a bit rubbish is this teacher"

PS that's terrible about the good ones having to muddle through. I had that for A level German- I was the only one in the school doing it, and the teacher (head of dept) used to sit me in the office, get on with her paperwork, and have me plough through an old fashioned grammar exercise book. I might as well have taught myself at home and done another A level at school.

I know what you mean about over-high expectations, bucharest; this is why I have held back and not said anything for two years. This and the fact that I was educated in another country where we were expected to learn the languages we were taught and I can see that this is still the case for my nephews over there. SO yes, I can see the need for treading carefully.

Even so, I can see that this teacher is particularly bad. Dd complains that her friends in bottom set are learning far more than she is and that does appear to be true.

Besides, I have friends who are French teachers in other UK schools and they do not have the ghastly pronunciation. It's the accent that bugs me most far more than her not teaching them the grammar, because the accent is something that dd is going to have to struggle to unlearn. She would be better off not doing French at all at the moment than learning it from this teacher.

The standard of Language teaching has dumbed down to an unacceptable level. My child, though considered above average in her grammar school, had a very limited grasp of grammar. Her teacher rarely made them take dictation and weekly vocabulary tests {that I remember so well} seem a thing of the past. Eventually I coughed up for private tuition though I resented having to.

Cory, this link to the bbc page takes you to the different interactive learning programmes. Some are not really geared for beginners. None of them are as appealing to teenagers like the Mi Vida Loca one on the sister minisite.

The website www.linguascope.com is a great interactive learning site for languages and it is designed by teachers for schools in particular to use. It cost I think about £20 for a private account but as a parent that means you will have access to tons of worksheets and powerpoints made by teachers.

I think it is worth the £20 a year. It also goes from Primary languages to GCSE.

do you have any French friends you can send her to stay with for a couple of weeks in the holidays?

Hi
We had an issue with DCs maths. Our course of action was first to contact the form tutor who raised it with year tutor who raised it with head of dept. The problem was resolved very quickly. The teacher was chippy with us at the next parents meeting but that's her problem not ours.

My advice would be first to contact the form teacher to say that there is a problem which you want addressed and ask him/her to recommend the route. That way no one can complain you are going about it the wrong way.

Focus your concerns on the problems your daughter is having (eg accent) rather than on the teacher's competence or otherwise. This way you arent criticising directly which will make the school antagonistic.

Go through the right route and also be firm. You may be surprised by what can be achieved. It does no harm for the school to know that you are an interested and concerned parent.

Thanks everybody, you're great!

What I needed was precisely this: a calm plan of action so I don't go ranting into school and destroy the great relationship we have (dd does need special support for chronic health issues so am very anxious to preserve good relations).

Will definitely check out those websites, foxy.

Form teacher perhaps going to be difficult: he is a graphics teacher who is very kind but doesn't really seem to have much of an understanding of the more academic subjects.

The problem with just mentioning dd's accent is that then they will tell her to copy the teacher, which is exactly what teacher said to us yesterday. And exactly what we do not want her to do.

Cory, if you want a French textbook that covers grammar thoroughly, try Galore Park. The lack of grammar teaching in languages annoys me so much and I am a languages teacher!! The trouble is that most textbooks just don't cover it adequately and I think we now have some younger teachers who don't understand it as thoroughly as they should and who don't value it.

I, on the other hand, am an old bat (metaphorically only!!) and insist on my top sets (and set 2s if I had any!!) being able to conjugate a verb - once I have taught them what a verb is.

I home educate my 3 DCs and have a small group of HE kids, who are great and enthusiastic. Even the youngest, who is 6, has some understanding of verb conjugations and my 8 year old is doing really well (present and perfect tenses and near future so far). I use Galore Park with them. (The listening exercises aren't great - just dialogues that are in the book but probably good for listen and repeat type work to correct the poor pronunciation.)

Cory - does the school run a French exchange? If so I'd also recommend that as a great way of acelerating progress (also speaking as a linguist!). My DD did 3 French exchanges and 2 German ones as I wanted to grasp as many ops. for her as poss. and she was v. enthusiastic.

Have been out today and bought one big grammar (looks very substantial and one small pocket grammar for dd to take with her if she takes French book on holiday etc. We bought some children's books when we were in France at Easter and she has a dictionary, so my plan is to get her reading (she is an avid reader) and take that as the point of departure of my grammar lessons, and then use websites for more modern conversational French. This (minus the websites, evidently) is how I learnt both French and English as a child and it worked for me.

Not sure that there is a French exchange and not sure a French family would want to have dd as she is physically disabled.

I don't know if this accords wiht your experience but I find DS (10 ) far more capable in Latin than French - despite having just started Latin this year.

In Latin he can conjugate verbs in several tenses and knows his declensions. In French he's only just starting to do his verbs in the present. It's all so very scattered. One term he learns about directions, the next his free time. So he'll say and write je joue le foot, but doesn't make the connection to the verb ending because it's not taught methodically.

That said, I'm an old fogey who remembers chanting e, es, e, e, ons, ez, ent, ent.

9which is precisely how they do it still in Latin - amo, amas, amat...

Why not go in and speak to the form teacher and tell him it is a delicate subject but that you are wanting to be constructive but don't know how to take the issue forward. Say that you are concerned that your dd is learning poor/wrong pronounciation and that through your own knowledge of languages, you know that that sort of thing is difficult to "unlearn".

Express concern that as the top set, they will be put off languages, as without extra support, they will fail the oral part of any exams. Put it in the contaxt of the national conern that people are dropping modern languages.

If no-one comments on the teacher, then she will never have reason to improve.

This is what I want to do, prettybird- but do I have the nerve?

you must approach the schoo, this is appalling teaching (am ex head of mfl, I wouldn't tolerate it!) but tbh I wouldn't bother with form teacher, I'd go to head of dept, if no joy there go to head of year - good luck

I'd have your DD to stay but I'm a bit far! Plus I don't have a DD of any age. And we tend to speak English at home....

More constructively you sound like you're doing all the right things. Is there any possibility you could find a French conversation tutor for her accent? Local student (no idea where you are)?

I think you do need to raise the issue about the fairly dire teacher. The accent is a real problem and the idea that the grammar won't be understood anyway

I remember learning my conjugations and little rules (je n'aime pas le 't' anyone?) but I went to quite a trad school and was taught by French natives who basically used the French system! My contemporaries, some starting out as teachers, have no idea sometimes. One friend has a theology degree and a Spanish Alevel so she's teaching Y7 French?! It's systemic problem, if it's any consolation, which it probably isn't.

Thanks again, folks, you are making me see this in a clearer light. I want to come across as fair and sensible.