Secondary School Appeals

[julieh1968]

HI just had my appeal for my first choice secondary school. Kinda knew what to expect and the panel were good. An opinion on whether what came out at the appeal will stand me in good staed would be appreciated.

The rep from the school stated school full up etc can't possibly accept anymore pupils above PUblished Admission Number - I questioned this as offered 1 place above PAN last year and also 1 place above PAN in current year 10, so presumably they can accomodate an extra pupil where necessary.
THe real sticky point came when they said they were operating at above Net Capacity, their NET Capacity is stated as 1074 pupils, but tehy currently have 1180 pupils on roll. I asked how come they were operating at so much above capacity and basically this is due to their 6th form. Their own documentation states that they intend to place at 6th form must achieve certain grades and that priority will be given to those already attending the school - fair enough. They also say they intend to admit 50 other pupils to 6th form based on teh highest GCSE scores. HOwever it came out that they are admitting far in excess of this number (75 last year). THe chair of the panel became very annoyed with teh school rep asking questions lie "how comes you are admitting So many more than you indicate?" You are claiming to be full yet you admit above numbers and "the panel will draw their own conclusions from this! They also questioned the info that had been provided re overcrowding issues, given this further info.
Obviously the school can cherry pick at 6th form level and as a consequence achieve very good a -level results. The school rep did not seem to be able to give adequate answers to tehir questions and the Chair in particular seemed very put out.

I am hoping this will stand me in good stead for my appeal but don't really know whether opening this can of worms has done me any favours or not. I guess this kind of blows the schools case on overcrowding when they are willing to accept so many extra 6th form students but don't know if this will help me. Anyone who has any experience of this kind of thing I would love to hear from. Got to wait 2 weeks for the outcome and will be on hols then so more like 3 weeks, nail biting time!

I'm going through appeal process, just wanted to wish you all the best. It's more stressful than moving house or even planning a wedding!!!!

2 weeks that is a hell of a long time after an appeal before you get to know the answer. The admission appeal code says ideally it should be within 5 days, but I suppose it depends on how many appeals there are.

The panel had obviously sussed the fact that the school is grabbing every 6th form pupil they can. Obviously from the schools point of view this is a good idea as the funding for 6th form pupils is higher than other pupils. There are obviously lots of other factors to take into consideration but if nothing else you have certainly made sure that the panel take into consideration the schools capacity to add to the 6th form when they do not seem to have the same latitude in year 7.

I agree with Admission on both points. The LA should be trying to get the results of the appeal out within 5 working days. Making you wait this long is not good, but sadly there isn't anything you can do about it.

What the school is doing with the 6th form is about funding rather than A-level results. It depends what your panel thinks about this. It certainly sounds like the chair wasn't impressed. The negative is that they are already over 100 beyond their net capacity. The panel may feel that they can't admit any more even though they are unhappy with the school's behaviour.

Opening this can of worms certainly won't have harmed your appeal. At worst it will have made no difference. At best it will have convinced the appeal panel that the school can cope with extra pupils in Y7. There will, of course, be other factors for the panel to consider before deciding whether or not to admit your child.

Thank you both for your feedback and Kimmy for your words of support.
There were 13 appeals for the school apparently (not sure how many actually turned up). In the current year 13 there are 162 pupils who will obviously be leaving at the end of this school year. The current year 12 is at 180, would it be fair to asume that there will be a drop out at the end of year 12 ( I know it was suggested that my stepson didn't return after year 11 as his grades at AS weren't good enough, different school but similar principals). If the school was operating at 100 over Net capacity would it not be safe to assume they could continue to do so - this was clearly a route it had chosen to follow. Thus if the school were to follow their criteria for admittance into 6th form, rather than admitting over and above, would that not effectively mean it could accept extra pupils lower down the school. Or am I really clutching at straws.

By the way the Chair was most definately unimpressed, it was almost raised voices! She also seemed to be guiding her panel by saying "I'm sure teh panel will come to their own conclusions" drawing attention to teh fact the school was not behaving as might be described as entirely properly.

Lots of things crossed here, wasn't even going to mention the fact above net capacity as though it would go against me rather than possibly in my favour.

There is an element of straw clutching there! The panel has to assume that there are no dropouts at the end of Y12 and that next year's Y12 will be full. On the other hand as the school has already chosen to operate 100 over the net capacity the panel can certainly conclude that it isn't prejudiced by this and can therefore continue operating at this level. However, a line has to be drawn somewhere. In this situation it is difficult to know where the panel will choose to draw that line.

I'm so desperate to know how this will go. Feel I've probably won someones appeal for them but not sure it will be my own! I go from "surely this must mean I have a good case" to "I'M sure I've failed."
My other worry now is if I win the appeal and my daughter gains a place will what happened at the appeal mean I will be remembered by teh deputy head and be viewed as "that trouble making woman". Just glad it wasn't the Head who I do know personally, grateful for small mercies lol

I certainly hope not. Schools lose appeals all the time. Around 35% of appeals are successful. It would be pretty silly of them to hold that against the parents. And it certainly isn't your fault they are operating so far over capacity.

Of course the deputy head is human and we all sometimes react in inappropriate ways. But I hope he/she will be professional enough to handle the situation properly.

I would not expect the deputy head to be at all an issue in the future. The school have to come and make a case to not admit and defend the position of the school. What they say in private within the school may be totally different and they may be perfectly happy to accept all 13 pupils. Their attitude to wanting a big 6th form may suggest this. I suspect most deputy heads have far more problems to resolve in a school than "that women at appeal" They probably forgot about it the moment they walked out of the appeal hearing as the next problem reared its ugly head on their blackberry!

The 6th form numbers are an issue for the panel to take into consideration but the more important consideration for me is what the PAN for year 7 is and what the school is doing to accomodate them in terms of teaching groups and available accomodation. Obviously what the 6th form do for accomodation would be a key issue here. The fact that only a couple have been admitted above PAN would suggest that panels have previously tended to agree with the school that they are full and only admitted pupils that have a very good case for admission. Sorry that may be being negative for your chances of being offered a place. But different panels, different views especially if the 6th form numbers increase has not been raised before.

My appeal was not successful, but awaiting details as to why, but suspect I will get just the standard blurb about detrimental to others rather than something specific to my case. I am very disappointed for my daughter. Just have to keep fingers crossed for CI now.

Currently 15th on Music and 21st on Distance so bit of an outside chance. Who know maybe other peoples appeals for schools in the area will have a knock on effect to the school I want.

Sorry about your appeal julie, i have a horrible feeling i will be in your situation soon enough. My appeal is in June. You have done you best, at least you know that much.
All the best

OP I have been advised that the panel will do their best to help you with your case if they possibly can, and it seems to me that they were doing this by drawing attention to this issue.

I know someone who won school appeal, and the panel chair, like yours, went out of their way to point out an issue brought up. In her case it was that parents who had submitted their applications late were put above her ds on the waiting list. Th panel was not at all impressed by this and found in favour of their appeal.

If the school accepted one over the admissions number in the year last year then there is no reason they can't do so again for a given year in terms of accomodating in year groups, specific class rooms etc. The sticky point may be communal areas, like aseembly in the hall or canteen. Did you ask if the 6th form have their own canteen area? Some schools do.

ANyway, I wanted to say that it sounds very much like the panel are doing thier best for you. I think you should feel positive after your hearing.

My own appeal for ds's school is coming up. I am still awaiting info from the school/council about the appeal. Am getting very stressed as I don't feel they are going to give me enough time to do any reasearch into whatever they put forward.

Can I ask how you found out about the extra space over PAN being offered? Was it on the councils published info on the school? Did you have to wing a lot of it on the day based on what was put forward or were you there ready with your facts and figures. I am at a loss on how to get the figures and make sense of them when I've had nothing through from the school/council at all yet. Not even a date, but they told me on the phone this week which of two dates it was likely to be and that 13 families are appealing in all. Not sure if that's good or bad considering my ds is currently 68th on the wating list. He started of at 93rd. Winning the appeal is my only hope...

Hi Gilly

I contacted the school directly and asked for their current role numbers in each year group. I also looked at the admission booklet and that showed the number of places offered last year.

Part of my schools criteria was musical apptuitude and she sat an aural test, unfortunately she had tonsillitis at teh time and I got a doctors note confirming. I also had a letter from her music teacher and as they are having new sports facilities built I also provided evidence of G&T in sport, but all to no avail.

I have found out that 3 of the appeals were upheld and feel I quite possibly helped their case but not my own.

There has been absolutely no movement on the CI list since the appeals went in (don't know if they were holding off offering any refused places in case of upheld appeals - it is a Foundation school rather than LA so I suppose that's a posssibility). My daughter started at 29th on distance and 19th for music, so not very hopeful.

The only bright thing on the horizon is that there are better schools in the area so no doubt some of the people who have gained places at the school I want are appealing for the other schools and will hopefully win tehir appeals and free up places at the school I want. Also quite a big area for private education so some may drop out in favour of that,

Feeling quite deflated at the moment and not really very hopeful. Thought the appeal had gone well and as I had highlighted that they were happy to accept loads over at the other end of the school they would be obliged to accept at the lower end as well.

Ho HUm

Gillybean - From your description the panel in your friend's case got it wrong. The Admissions Code specifically says that LAs cannot put late applicants at the end of the waiting list. The order of children on the waiting list must be determined purely by the admission criteria. If your description is accurate, that panel is in urgent need of retraining.

Julieh - I'm sorry to hear that. It doesn't help you but it would be interesting to know if any of the appeals succeeded. I wouldn't be surprised to find that the panel decided they could admit some children but yours wasn't one of those chosen. Do you know where you are on the waiting list?

You've answered my questions while I was typing!

I hope you get a satisfactory solution for your daughter. Fingers crossed.

Maybe making a pest of myself will help! I was so shocked by the reaction when I mentioned over numbers in the 6th form that I didn't ask any further question, maybe should have had more killer instict. Oh well no use crying over spilt milk.

I knew I didn't really have that strong a case and originally was not even going to appeal, was just buoyed by the way things went on the day.