music -in or out of school

[circular]

DD1 very musical, but a late starter with formal lessons and taking grades. She currently has lessons on one instrument privately, (continued with her teacher from junior school) ant two within school that she started on yr7. She also wants to start piano lessons that she is so far self taught on
One of her in school teachers only attends for a couple of hours a week, which means her missing the same lesson each week. This year thIs has only resulted in hacking off the PE teacher, but it could get more difficult if it starts to happen in a more important subject. She is bright, but lazy and disorganised.
Choosing options next year, will be on an academic pathway, very likely triple science. As ICT is compulsory, only leaves 3 options including a language which is optional. She has made noises about a career in either music or science ( unlikely that that she would be able to combine the two). Therefore, once choosing music and tench, that only leaves one choice. Most likely to be geography, but she is also a very high standard in drama & RS. So something will have to give.

We are considering external tuition for ALL her music study, perhaps a Saturday school.
Pros- would solve the missed lessons problem, allow her to do drama GCSE at school, more concentrated music study
Cons- likely to be more expensive, involves committing Saturdays ( so no Saturday job when she is old enough), she would not want to change two of her
three instrument teachers.

Not likely to be eligible for any scholarships as can only show the potential, and not the correct grades on paper for her age.

Any thoughts appreciated

DD2 has an early flute lesson before school to stop her missing lessons(she's in year 12)and it hasn't been a problem for her to miss lessons over the last few years but she is very organised and always caught up anything she missed. Her older sister had an English teacher who refused to let her leave for piano lessons and I felt as if I was always phoning the school to try and sort things out. DS has guitar lessons out of school and it works out to be cheaper as the school music service is very expensive and it certainly makes life easier.

I wouldn't right off scholarships as they often want potential. A friend's DS was a late starter and is now at Chetham's music college for sixth form.

I can't really advise - as your OP rightly states there are pros & cons to both, and you really have to figure out what will work best for you. But I've jotted down some things that I've been told or observed that may or may not be helpful...

Ds has 3 music lessons a week in school and the missed lessons are a nuisence to be fair. The last two years he has missed at least one and often two French lessons a week which isn't very helpful, but he does manage to catch up most of the time. He's a fairly organised type - school lessons work for him as he remembers to go and is reasonably concientious about catching up missed work.

A head teacher I spoke to once reckoned a mix of in and out of school was best - it is a balance between losing lessons and losing spare time.

Most music teachers I have spoken to think their private pupils do better than their school ones - they are more likely to show up on time & practice more.

Ds has a friend who goes to music college on Saturdays & it's a long & intense day, but it does seem to work well for him (except of course you have that commitment every weekend - and it costs a lot).

Again can't advise - will probably be in your situation soon though!

As an aside though - music and science can be combined quite successfully - music technology, and sound recording in particular require a 'flare' for both subects. Might be something to look at once she's looking at AL and university options

Hi Circular - DS1 in YR7 is also learning 3 musical instruments in school. Initially he started off with learning 2 instruments (Violin & Saxophone) but then decided he wanted to study a third (Cello). Each musical lesson lasts for 30mins and normal classroom lessons last for 45mins.

His school's policy on musical instruments is such that the child misses the last 15mins of one lesson and the first 15mins of the 2nd lesson.

So for example if he's got his Violin lesson scheduled for 11:00 - 11:30, he'll miss the last 15 mins of say, Art and the 1st 15mins of DT. This is done on a rotational basis so he doesn't miss the same subjects next time. i.e the next Violin lesson might be scheduled for 11:30 - 12:00 noon.

This worked fine for non-core subjects. However there was some interference with subjects like Science and Maths.

I found that speaking to the music teachers to find more suitable times did help. E.g DS was happy to have some lessons before registration, during morning / lunch break or after school.

Perhaps, this might be something you could pursue with your DD's music teachers?

HTH

Hi Titchy

Music technology is not so much her thing - more performing, mentoring others and traditional composing from keyboards.
The science passion is chemistry/ forensics.
So apart from perhaps primary school teaching, we are stumped for anything that even loosely combines the two.
Re scholarsips - I was referring to those at 11 or 13 for yr7 or 9 entry at inependent schools offering music scholarships where up to half the fees and 2 instruments tuition is awarded. When we enquirer at 10
were told min grade4/5 standard on first instrument and 2 on second. At that time she had not had any formal lessons, but was just about grade 2 standard on
I thought most of the other scholarships were for specialist music schools for at least 6 th form level. DD1 is 12, an August yr8.
recorder from club. Then for 13+ it's aminimum grade 6, which she would have had to have been by Jan just gone to audition. Not quite there yet.
The Saturday schools we have looked at, we are out of area for funding, so would need to pay full fees. May get help latter if income drops below a certain level. Currently just about affordable, but not if she still wants to continue with 2 of her 3 current teachers. Still,need
to get through the audition first, likely to be too late forSep 10.
DD2 (age 7, an old yr2) is also showing signs of being musical. will want to start at least one instrument next yr. So the costs could mount, and dint want her being left out. She has already not had the private school start that her sister had ( off on a guilt trip now)

She sounds very organised. We have had 5 children doing a lot of music, grade 8s etc and one got a music scholarship at 12 but he did have a grade 8, obviously grade 5 theory (distinction), grade 6 and I think another grade 6 or it may have been 5 by then. To get those scholarships they do need the early work. You can do a lot at home. I've taught the youngest two for their grade 5 music theory which they need for grades above 5 anyway.

We tended to go for one instrument taught in school and one out. At the moment one of them has 2 lessons a week but one is at 8am before school so that doesn't involve missing a lesson. It does get difficult if they are heavily into sport too.

On her GCSEs I would get her to do 8 or 9 traditional subjects like her 3 sciences, definitely a language if not two as you will know she'd virtually be forced to do one at plenty of the best schools (and for good reason and universities used to require one no matter what degree - they are hard good GCSEs not lke GCSE typing or something) and then I think history and/or geography, and of course maths, english lang, english lit. I'm not sure music careers are always the best ones to go for - know vast numbers of people who regret it. There are so many brilliant people around and most end up teaching useless chidlren and earning a pittance. Keep it as a loved hobby.

Hi Xenia

Organisation has been her biggest problem - that's why we never let her start any music lessons at 7, but beginning to regret that now. Getting better with the organisation, and is now making an effort to seek out and apologise to her teachers in advance when missing their lesson. But she never seems to do anything to cind out the missed work to catch up. She startted yr 7 about 2 years ahead, finds it all much too wAy, although we continually warn her it will get harder.
As for the GCSEs, her school stopped the compulsorty language for triple science students a year ago. Reasoning being that a lot of kids that are good at science are hopeless with languages. So it will. English x2, maths ( + stats as extra if recommended), science x3, ICT as core. then just 3 choices. At the moment that's looking like French, Geography and Music.
So that's 10 / 11, with 9 being "hard subjects". That's counting ICT and stats as "soft'. Annoyingly , the soft ones are what is compulsory, and this is the pathway. I suppose that's what happens when kid that's good at science and music goes to a school with Business and enterprise as it's first specialism. Our other scoop choice was a performing arts school, but the school is much worse in General.
Iif we move the music GCSE out of school, that gives room for another option. Can't see her doing a second language though - her only choice there would be German as she chose that over Spanish last year. She would chose RS before history, otherwise drama - so would just gain another soft option.

Unless she takes the music out of school. I don't think she would do history, though - would chose RS or drama.

Those seem like very good choices. I taught myself music GCSE out of school in the sixth form as I'd done up to grade 8 music theory with my piano teacher and it wasn't very hard. I didn't have any lessons and my school just let me sit it at the school.

My children's father is a music teacher and he has always said it doesn't make too much difference if they start at 5 rather than 7 and I agree with that too.

I was reading an article in the Sunday papers about a former table tennis champion. 9 of the best players in the UK came from near his house 20 years ago as the England coach helped out at his comprehensive school. His point in the article was that if you concentrate the effort for a child in a particular area you can make them very good and I am sure he is right. The only reason my sons had some ridiculous number of 13 music exams passed in a year in their last school magazine as just because I put a bit of effort into that at home for once. It could just have easily been French or sport.

Music if a hard career though. It's like acting. We've always taken the view that unless you're a sort of genius could not not do it, so so keen on it, 4 hours practice a day kind of person it's better to steer children away from it. Most people who do it don't make much money at it and like actors end up teaching or waiting at tables, whereas plenty of people like I have have kept it as a fun hobby all their lives.

MY DD did 2 instruments to grade 8 and one to grade 7 as she started it later. She also did GCS and A level Music. We did a mix of school and in-school for the instrument tuition and this worked well for her. She could catch up on the subject missed for one instrument but the other instruments were out of school and I think it wd have been too much to do all 3 in-school.

She considered a music career as she is passionate about it but in the end realised her real flair was elsewhere. I did not steer on this point as I know she needed to make her own deicision! Music continues for her as a passionate hobby wherever she goes.

This thread makes me realise that some schools seem to insist on too many GCSEs. IME its better to do 8-9 really well and leave room in life for some passionate oustide interests and activities! Oxbridge seem to be happy with 9 or 10 GCSEs! My DD did the 10th subject in 6th form.