The Real School League Tables

[Xenia]

Only using subjects Cambridge accepts (top 1000 are ranked in all sectors). I like the fact they give earlier rankings too so you get to see the history rather than just a blip year.

www.ft.com/cms/s/0/53840c30-327e-11df-bf20-00144feabdc0.html

"The FT?s school league tables focus unashamedly on academic achievement defined by ?core? subject A-level results, as set out by Cambridge University in 2006. Subjects such as drama and media studies are not included in our analysis.

By contrast, the government?s summary scores for schools at GCE/VCE, A-level and AS-levels this year (for 2009 exam results) again included various other qualifications in subjects such as animal care, and make-up, which we feel give little help to students and parents aiming for places at top universities.
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Apologies to readers in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but the devolved assemblies (education is devolved) have decided that school performance data is not a public good and have made school level data nigh-on impossible to access. Sadly we cannot include their schools.
...

Like the government?s, our analysis uses the QCA points system, as follows: grade A A-levels = 270 points, grade B = 240 points, C = 210 points, D = 180 points and E = 150

I'd love to see a league table that measured eating disorders/ self harm/ drug taking and overall mental health. There is more to life you know people.

But you get that all over the place and at least in the private schools there are probably fewer stabbings and weapons in schools etc etc.

If you have as very clever child they tend to do better with similar children. The important thing about the league tables is they enable parents to make an informed choice. If you want a school where the children dont' have to attend lessons then you pick Summer Hill or if you want music you might pick Y M or Chetam's and if you're a bit thick but want boarding and sports Millfield etc etc... I don't think it's that hard to get information about which school has the best music and sports results. you only have to look at who competes in the Olympics to know that the 7% at private schools are massively better at sport than the state system which basically does most things badly because that's what the state always does.

Let's instead abolish state schooling and give parents a £5k a year voucher to spend where they choose. That would raise standards.

Good point. I was told by one parent that at a high league table secondary school she knows the girls are under huge pressure and the incidence of bullying and eating disorders is worringly high. She said the school is rather more interested in its academic league table position though and prefers to advise parents take their daughter out of the school if she is having problems or not able to handle the pressure to perform.

She was shocked at how Darwinian their approach was - they even have an unstated policy of culling good students at the bottom of each class if they get a lot of new applicants that are better.

I was responding to ra29needsabettername with my previous post.

However, I also agree with Xenia about vouchers as well.

But I know at my daughters' old schools my girls always said all pressure was really from individual girls. I seem to have bred totally laid back children. I don't think they felt pressured by schools in the top 20 at all but there were certainly children in their classes who were very internally driven and some with eating disorders. High achieving teenage girls are the classic category to have anorexia and the schools have very very good provision for that and other issues children might have although I've no direct experience of it.

My experience was the schools going on about not working all hours, keeping up your hobbies, having time outside and not revision for hours a day at A level stage. In other words telling the girls to lay off a bit with work because you do better if you have a break from it all. But that doesn't mean all private schools are the same.

Also there are huge numbhers of parents out there with chilren who have no chance of getting into the top 20 schools who love ot suggest they are awful places full of pressured chidlren whereas they aren't at all but you can see why someone whose precious little May whom they think is a genius was rejected by XYA school or they realised there was no point in her sitting because she'd fail the exam likes to think those places are the first stage of hell when in fact they tend to be pretty lovely environments. I won't mention the lakes on this thread.

'Also if a really good private school rejects 4 in 5 of applicants at 11+ because their marks are lower in the entrance tests and all those parents can pay (which is the case with the best private schools) it is not a question of being able to pay and then they get in'

Yay and nay

Absolutely aspects of the best education cannot be boughth but those children rejected aren't going to end up at sink comp are they? Just less selective private in the next town- which still probably has better facillities than most other comps.

The comp here is astounding; great resukts, tiny catchment, already have people nudging me to ask if we really want ds2 to attend as trheya re out of catchment and we are not (oh sod off is what I think as I politely smile and point out that they are not even in upper school yet - and yes of course I want him study with his friendship group, why shouldn't I?). My Uni course leader has a son doing his A's there (offered Cambridge, rejected it because the degree he wants is somewhat remarkably less marketable from there due to course content) and we sit and laugh at the children who all have a parlour of tehir own (obviosuly we live in 1864) but it is somewhat scary that her son is the ojnly one in his calss not to receive private tutoring: there's no way we could finance that, dn even if we could with 2X asd therapies to delvier and ds2's own dyspraxia / dyslexia stuff, it would be unmanageable. DS32 is bright as a button and a great social child who is suited to his career ambition, but he's always going to be at a disadvanatge when people can throw random cash at their children. Luckily though he should thrive in his career choice and we have links (sister in same career), much as with ds1 his career choice is non academic and Dh will be in same field- counts for a lot.

DS32!?

PMSL

ds2

I do have 4 though but no more (Nan had sixteen so probably still get to claim most common genes of my generation award: a prime reason for moving away if ever there was one, when your family is so large marrying anyone within 10 miles probably equals in breeding )

My great grandmother had 17 I think and I have 5.

Yes, lots of state school pupils like Blair's when they were at a state school have tutoring - he bought it in from Westminster School but I think if a child isn't bright enough to get into a school without tutoring it may not be the right school for them unless it's just doing practice papers and exam technique and I certainly never even looked at a piece of GCSE course work of the older 3 children and they didn't have tutors.

I ilke them to relax and be and learn how to be bored and how to deal with having nothing on and get on with each other and pursue hobbies etc. If you look at how successful people my age (40s) were educated it's very variable although it is extremely helpful to have good exam results early on for plenty of careers and makes it harder if you don't but you need inclination to succeed, hard work and good physical and mental health too, a huge range of interesting factors.

Anyway it's nice to be able to pay for a good school. It just makes things a bit simpler and it's quite nice to feel you're a paying customer rather than a forlock tugging yokel lucky to have the sink comp because of the largesse of people who pay as much tax as I do. The experience as a parent is nicer too. We actually set foot in a local state school recently. I could hardly believe it. It was like a prison camp - no carpets, the building looked like partially prefab circa 1960 a kind of bleakness about it you don't get in the private sector and that wasn't even our local one which went from 22% A - C GCES to the dizzy heights of 34%. There are of course spanking new physical buildings labour as churned out whilst it taxes the rest of us until the pips squeak to pay for it but even so the result is that fewer state pupils do well compared to private so it's not working.

Xeniua I agree

And in fact so did the young man I mantioned- he said to his Mum what happens to all these children when they get onto the demanding University courses? (She said they are the ones who vanish in a term rather than fail as it could not possibly be thir ability lacking, must be the course - she used to lecture at cardiff so probably met a few of them!)

I will pay for specific help for specific things- dyslexia support or whatever. Stuff to enable him to show how bright he is. But in all truth if he cannot get into a job through natural ability its probably the wrong route for him. nobody is talented at everything- I can wrote you an essay on islamic history for tomorrow but I can't 9random example) draw for toffee. So exams results showing that are good as they help me target where I fit and not soem pointless dream that is doomed to fail.

(DS2 wants to work in animal rescue, like his Aunt, so needs to access an HND in animal science- not easy but not Oxbridge either, at least not is studied at the agricultural college where mum lives)

Don't mention the lake!

Still wondering if a 'body of water' league table might be quite useful though with each school graded on the following comparative scale.

Olympic sized rowing Lake and 50 metre swimming pool (e.g Eton) at the top end. Muddy cow field, a puddle in the playground and a gold fish bowl in the headmaster's study (e.g my old primary school) at the bottom end.

My DSs current school features a dangerous river with regular drownings and occassonal use of a local authority pool with a leaking roof. Tried it on a few other schools and it seems to be a surprisingly accurate indictor of overall quality. Encompasses state and private and difficult to fiddle the results too.

My old school had a fully functional farm, where would that score I wonder? (me? Somerset born and bred? noooo....). 'course they don't any mroe, the animals all went to alughtewr over a summer.

So academic propwess- nil; general life skills and 'deal with it children' factor- full marks.

I love hearing your schpiel, Xenia. Are you qualified to dish out little gems like 'most children follow the herd'? Do you realise how totally inaccurate most of your sweeping statements about people Who Dont Go To North London Collegiate are?

If we are talking anecdotally, as you are so fond of doing - I recently attended a meeting of consultants and researchers involved in the treatment of anorexia in teenage girls. NLC was mentioned several times as being a school very severely affected by this disease. I wonder if it's all the pressure parents put on their daughters?

DOubt it. Probably just consultants jealous their daughters cannot get in. If you have lots of clever middle class girls some will have it. Obviously I knew every girl in my daughter's class. They always seemed to eat a lot.

But this point about teenagers being influenced by their school mates - surely that's very well established. They take more notice of their friends than their parents. They want to become a plumber or go to an ex poly because everyone at school is or no the dole or to have a baby. If everyone works hard and does well they are more likely to see that as the norm. I'm not saying chdilren can't be different but it's very hard to be at that age so place your child in an environment of peers you want them to emulate.

Anorexia is internal. It's not really caused by parents although like many things in this society blaming parents is de rigour so it wouldn't be surprising if people weren't seeking to blame it on that.

Anorexia is aboutmany things (DS1 in dx process)- in a good part about children who drive themselves to perfection.

I woiudl imagine higher pressuring parents are more likely to engender that in a child although it is only a guess.

It's also about control of course and low self esteen. In truth high self esteem is one of the qualities I would associate with those private school educated people I know; on occasion too high mind!

Having had direct experience of NLCS Xenia I can assure you my opinions about it have absolutely nothing to do with envy.
As you say, adolescents can follow the culture around them, so eating disordered attitudes can become part of that culture.
The idea that these schools are not pressured is laughable.
Putting a whole lot of perfectionist young girls together in an environment that further pushes the idea of academic, musical, artistic perfection is utter madness.
The a level/oxbridge results mean far less to me than the mental health of my child.

Sadly I do agree with Xenia about peer group

My very academic ds will outright say 'Yes but (insert childs name) is not competitive' His academic success was due to home/genetics/school but where he has been driven to EXCEL has been peer group.

Desperate to outwit his friends he has driven his grades higher and higher...they all compete - there are maybe 8 of them who bounce off one another in the sciences and achieve accordingly

My ds has done really well and got a cambridge offer though 100% state education plus loads of other interests and social skills to boot..

He and his peers pour scorn on the privately educated who took Mummy and Daddy along to the Oxbridge interviews

Who am i to comment?

My opinions are nothing to do with envy either, I'm afraid

Plenty get into Oxbridge from my DCs' school, which is, gasp, a state school (without a lake).

Xenia's comments always amuses me... it is not that she appears to live on a different planet but that her notions are a romantic projection on private schools that they themselves do not bear.

IME "selective" private schools are not rejecting 4 out of 5 applicants - many struggle to attract sufficient numbers and t hose that do have a choice are as much interested in factors other than academic scores such as personality, sporting ability, sense of self etc. The schools do emphasise just how difficult it is to get in but that is there marketing raison d'etre that justifies high prices. A child with say a 5b level in SATs terms will get into so called selective schools; a 4a even and perhaps even....

As one poster said the mental health of the girl is more important... and ironically it is the girl of a mother who thought that way who would do come out a rounded, sociable girl from a SPGS or the like

Again IME the self harming that goes on in some girls schools is a result not of the pressure on the girls per se (from home and school) but from the lack of choice - the narrow range of expectations everyone seems to have for the girls; the only thing they say they can choose is to self-harm.

"IME "selective" private schools are not rejecting 4 out of 5 applicants - many struggle to attract sufficient numbers and t hose that do have a choice are as much interested in factors other than academic scores such as personality, sporting ability, sense of self etc. The schools do emphasise just how difficult it is to get in but that is there marketing raison d'etre that justifies high prices. A child with say a 5b level in SATs terms will get into so called selective schools; a 4a even and perhaps even...."

I agree and disagree. Perhaps some selective ones are struggling to attract, but I highly doubt that schools in the top 10 of the list, even top 30, are struggling to attract students. I am looking into trying at 7+ for entry into the prep schools for some of the senior schools in the top5, and I can tell you that competition in scary fierce. 7+ entry is supposed to be the "easiest", and at that stage there are greater than 5 applicants per place. It is NOT just marketing.

These school do look for other factors besides pure academics - the things which will fit into the ethos of that particular school. I know one boy who was tops for the entry exam into Westminster Under and did not gain a place, and I know someone whose son didn't finish a part of the exam, but has a particularly quirky character and did get a place.

Sofa, that's right. it's probably regional though. However there I bet no matter how rich you are if you've a son with the average 100 IQ you can't get him into Manchester Grammar school. We got our daughters in before 11+ and there was lots of competition at the younger end but I still think that was worth it as at 11+ you get the state school parents piling in too and I suspect even more competition but we're just talking about the top 20 schools here. There are plenty of private schools with places going begging. I bet for example the Catholic boarding schools would take just about all comers and plenty of others would too.

Our daughters didn't get into the same schools but very very similar ones so were not together right the way through not that it really mattered and in the end they said they thought that worked well but surely that shows you can't easily get in. I doubt it's any easier now than when they started.

And there will always be the hugely briliant child who will get in anywhere and those in the middle or may or may not.

But I think children aren't damaged by the schools in terms of pressure in the way the thread suggests. If you have brought up robust children with their own views then even if other children in their class are obssessive about work you're not going to damage yourself over that.

Is self harm caused by lack of choice? Gosh yes and the same with starving yourself. It's a power and plenty of teenage children feel powerless but that's as much to do with their internal psyche (so parents don't blame yourselves) as anything else and plenty of teenagers kill themselves at all schools. It's a very difficult life stage. But I don't think being in an academic environment which suits you and you enjoy classes and everyone works to the same level is going to make you cut yourself or starve yourself to death. Being in a school where most children are much less clever and will leave school with few exams might not give you the choices you'd get at the better school.

What the bigger good schools give you, I hope, is a sense that you can succeed at whatever your talents are. My children have got as much out of sport and music and other things from their schools as they have out of the academic side of things. Bigger good schools which might have 40 different hobby clubs are more likely to permit a child to find its niche than schools without those choices. If all the pupils find GCSEs pretty easy then you can get on with general educatnio, avoid the state school/state grammar sillness of doing 11 or 12 exams and instead get on with your music, sport, debating, hiking, school religious club or whatever else. In other words you're freed from exam pressure in a sense in these good schools.

And of course some children are never happy anywhere. I don't really think we need happiness lessons like at Wellington or wherever they have them but talking to chidlren about what makes for contentment, ensuring they eat foods which ensure long term health, getting them out in the open air, giving them a chance to meditate, pray in a school chapel, do yoga or sing or whatever might help them in the area of good mental health for life too.

'But I don't think being in an academic environment which suits you and you enjoy classes and everyone works to the same level is going to make you cut yourself or starve yourself to death'

Entirely agree

DS1 is in a school that is the sort that people who would pay for a decent education use and thank the god of faith education for. He isn't suited, and his problems are about that.

Ironically of course most MN Mums would kill their own Grandma to get a place but then, that's SN for you isn't it? it's not IQ based- he had last Psych assessment 4 years ago and an IQ of 140 IRC with a spoken lanaguage age of 16 - 21 (he was 6).

it just doesn't suit him.

If NCLS suits you I imagine it is a pretty wonderful palce to be. the kids at the enarest but one private (Hab Monmouth) all seem to thrive well enough after all. The rick is about using your cash to buy what suits your child: whether that be biog famous uber selective or tiny homely nurture focussed establishment.

xenia at my sons grammar school they do 10 GCSEs

they do debating -rugby - hiking- skiing - chess- astronomy - drama etc etc etc

no silliness

no happiness lessons

just an amazing education and all free

Oh - and they won that debating thing - delighted in being one of the only state schools in final and won!

I haven't criticised all state schools. 93% of schools are state. It's just that at the very top the league tables not that many state schools enter.

On bias against them in today's paper is the suggestion there should be more discrimination including against good state grammars for university entrance. Someone comments that if at univesrity level fewer boys get in because their A levels are worse which is true but in their degrees they do better, then surely there is just as much a case , much more in fact as the differences are massive compared to the class/school issue, then to be logical you would allow all boys in with lower grades but the Government isn't logical. It's just engaged in a class war.

I don't know, I am always unsure about any applied difference.

I understand the idea with boys, and ds1 would probably fall enatly nitno that group as if boys mature later then ds1 probably has an extra few eyars on top for that (Simon baron-Cophen writes some interesting stuff on that side of things). But I was the same, compeltely immature at 18 and unable to cope with leaving home to study when I did: with my experience and my knowledge of ds1 we've decided instead ensure that whatever support we may have provided him with at 18 will be there at 25, 30 should he decide to study. I think he may well one day, but will need extra time not to grasp his intellectual abilitoes but develop his personal and coping sakills which are just as important.