tuition from year one and grammar school chances

[squashpie]

Apologies for cross posting but I thought people with kids in secondary school might be able to give me an insight.

DS is in year 1. He seems to be in top third in the various subjects. A few of his classmates have tuition/ kumon, which I'd always been dead against. Now I've discovered today that two of those tutored/ kumoned kids have extra maths to stretch them because they are clearly excelling.

We live in the London area and competition for grammar schools is fiercer than fierce and the local non-selective state schools are dire. It is our dearest wish that, if he were capable, DS would get into a grammar school. But how much of an advantage are the tutored/ kumoned kids getting. Will they be that far ahead when it comes to 11+? I've read on here that pupils level out but I can't help thinking that those who are so far ahead they are getting extra maths because they are already ahead of their year group are just going to maintain that lead. Do non-tutored but bright kids get into grammar school at 11?

Sorry for long post

My dd got into grammar school with no tutoring,the school had 3 applicants for every place available.I think the info we were given was that the child needs to be in the top 20% at primary school and expected to get level 5 in sats.

Also I can remember the headmaster saying at the prospactive parents evening,that if child needed tutoring to pass the eleven plus then they shouldnt be taking it.

Am also in (SW) London and the 2 local grammar schools provide tuition for those sitting the entrance exams in year 5 I think. I know that many parents at the (state) school my DCs go to start paying for private tuition from Year 4.

I personally agree that if they aren't really up to it (without the tuition) then should they really be sitting the entrance exam, especially here where there are about 2,000 applications for 120(?) places. However, I do think 'tuition' is important for preparing them for the whole exam scenario, which, in the local state schools they are not geared towards.

Squash - depends where you are - the oversubscription varies, as do the entry hurdles - some areas do Verbal reasoning, non-verbal, english, maths, other just comnibations of those. If like the Tiffins it is just verbal and non-verbal there is no special advantage in being stretched (horrible concept!!) in maths for example.

In some parts of London the ratio is more like 20 to one or above.

I would do it (tutoring) but not this young.

Bubbles, did you help your children at all, ie give them extra maths problems - games or otherwise, each day etc? I read with my DS every day but maths is not my strong point and when I start trying to explain anything mathematical, I just don't have the vocab and I end up confusing him.

Of course, I wouldn't want to send my child to anywhere he was not going to be happy in. But he's obviously bright (she writes as an unbiased mother ... and towards the top end of the class but all but two of those kids who are just ahead I know have tutoring/ kumon and the other two have similarly ambitious mothers who do 'home homework' every day. Many private schools give their kids maths homework etc in year one and most of those kids go onto selective secondary schools of some description, but we cannot afford to do private.

Where I live in Bucks the children I know who got into grammar school all had some additional tutoring or practice papers at home with parents. My daughter had always been near the top of her class in her large state junior school, but I don't think she would have passed the 11+ without some extra tuition from my sister in law who is a teacher.
State school pupils in Bucks get some familiarization sessions and two practise papers at the start of year 6, but most children need more than that to achieve the pass mark which is around 90%. The pass mark is standardized against all the children who take the test, so it is pushed higher because so much tutoring goes on.
We didn't do any formal tutoring until year 5, but it's good to encourage children to read as having a wide vocabulary is important, as is a sound knowledge of times tables.
My daughter is now in year 7 at grammar school and doing well. The website 11+ forum has imformation about the 11+ in different areas.

squashpie - I think you really need local advice as the 11+ system differs all over the country. As GRW says, the 11+ forum will give you advice specific to your area. bubbles4 says that their headmaster said you need to be in the top 20% to considerd the 11+ but here you need to be in the top 5%. That makes a big difference as to whether you need to tutor or not.

Dd is in Y8 at a grammar and doing very well. She is well-suited to the school but I don't think she would have got in without tutoring. However, I certainly wouldn't start in Y1. We never did "home homework" but we have always read a lot with our dc. That is all I would recommend doing at the moment.

considered

Thank you for your replies. I do feel resistant to tutoring this early but at the same time don't want my DS to feel he is lagging behind and that it's something to do with him and his ability. It's a bit of a dilemma. He's noticed these kids leave the classroom for extra work.

squashpie - it sounds as if your local GS's are the "super-selective" ones like Tiffin, which are harder to get into than the ones in GS areas - a 1 in 10 ratio instead of 1 in 3. And most of those 10 that take it are likely to be fairly bright kids on the whole.....in which case, in my experience your DC needs to be at the VERY top of their class to get in. The children I've known get in are the top one or two in their class and have been pretty much all the way through - if they are of that calibre, they only seem to need the standard year or so's tutoring from a specialist GS tutor. Tests like the Tiffin one really do seem to separate out the very able children rather than the over-tutored (from what I've seen) so being good at maths in yr 1 doesn't necessarily make those children any more likely to get in. (I'm saying this as someone whose DS's definitely aren't Tiffin material!)

Hmm what rubbish, I am more than capable of running a marathon but I can't do it without training or practice.
Nothing wrong with tutoring and those who don't do it and their child fails never forgive themselves I find.

yes but a marathon lasts a few hours - these kids are at the school for 6 years. what if they can cut it when they are there?
i dunno about this one.

My experience from the kid next door, so not personal, is if they are borderline they get dragged up to the required standard by their peers and teachers rather than a bright kid who gets dragged down by peers and teachers can't do anything about it.

I had a look round for proper research into whether a grammar education was beneficial or not a couple of years ago - there's not a lot, but one study found that 'borderline' children benefited most, and the very able benefited the least, compared with children of similar ability at comprehensives.

MillyMollyMoo - I wasn't saying you don't need to tutor! You definitely do to get into somewhere like Tiffin - just that you also need to be very very bright from what I've seen. The tutoring helps to get the kids used to the tests, different types of questions, how to do it in the time etc, but it can't alter the kids' fundamental level of cleverness (which those tests are specifically designed to find out!)