Worthless qualifications at state schools

[Judy1234]

Wise words.
Pick solid GCSEs in proper subjects - take a language, take English lit and lang, take maths, geography, history and 2 or 3 proper sciences and get just 8 or 9 in traditional subjects with good grades.

"The headmaster of Harrow has accused many state schools of deceiving children by entering them for ?worthless? qualifications. Barnaby Lenon said that grade inflation and a shift to vocational qualifications was masking a failure to teach enough pupils to a good standard.

?Let us not deceive our children, and especially children from poorer homes, with worthless qualifications so that they become like the citizens of Weimar Germany or Robert Mugabe?s Zimbabwe, carrying their certificates around in a wheelbarrow,? he told a conference.

?[Let?s not] produce people like those girls in the first round of The X Factor who tell us they want to be the next Britney Spears but can?t sing a note.?

He cited media studies as an example of a soft subject, for which many schools were keen to enter students because it was easier for them to get a good grade. The real route to a good job in one of the professions, he said, was good grades in traditional academic subjects such as maths, sciences and languages."

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/school_league_tables/article6998943.ece

I did Theatre Studies A level (plus history, politics and general studies) and went to Cambridge. They didn't care very much. In fact the admissions tutor for the university said 'two subjects and one for fun - that's nice' It's possible to get too hung up on these sort of things. IME oxbridge care about the whole person. Not that oxbridge is be all and end all though. Far from it.

Although that you have to only work hard for maths and not history. Depends what comes naturally to you.

Sorry Xenia, then I am afraid your earlier post talking about Luton and being the first person to go to uni must have been a quote from elsewhere...top tip, put quote marks around quotes then people won't think you are talking about yourself.

did Xenia go to the university of luton?

I think OP has a point. The saddest thing is that in some universities whole chemistry and physics departments have closed down because not enough people take the subjects at A-level.

Urbane I was just thinking about my a level choices which Oxford were very happy about. I did English Language, RS, Sociology and General Studies. That combined with a good interview enabled me to get the two E offer.

mutter,mutter,mutter .....Xenia......mutter......Luton..................university....luton....Xenia......mutter......

perhaps this explains my confusion...

By Xenia Sat 23-Jan-10 21:48:52
I think that children and their parents are just not aware of the views of many employers about these subjects, that it does matter. They are conned into thinking it doesn't matter.

Same with some careers:

"When I was 10 I asked my Dad: ?What?s the hardest thing to become?? ?A surgeon or a barrister,? was his reply.

The challenge was on! I was too squeamish to be a surgeon. I also had two younger brothers to argue with, so by 18 I was a pro. But ?barrister? was not a possible outcome on the career flowchart at my school, a Luton comprehensive. There were two charts ? one for boys and one for girls ? and hairdresser, secretary, nurse or teacher (if you were really smart) were the only possible outcomes for me.

My parents fully supported my choice of career, despite neither having gone to university and not knowing anything about the Bar. But it was a constant battle with those whose job it was to help to me to fulfil that dream ? my teachers.

Saying that I wanted to be a barrister was like saying that I wanted to be an astronaut. I was indulged, but secretly ridiculed. I was told that it was the Bar that was the problem: you had to have gone to Eton then Oxford or Cambridge. Then, they said, you might have a hope of a pupillage ? provided Daddy knows the head of chambers.

It did not take long to realise that the problem was no longer the Bar itself. Despite my working-class, state school background, I received nine invitations to pupillage interviews while in my final year of university.

My first landed me a place on the reserve list for a top civil set of chambers in London. I was made an offer the following year at the set where I?m now a tenant. Not once did I feel disadvantaged by my background. "

business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/student/article6993984.ece

she makes coffee too.... impressed

but I think she was probably referring to the link she posted at the bottom.

Amazingly, at my ordinary state school and despised ex-poly I learnt how to write properly, and ended up working in the most prestigious publishing houses in the world.

But then, I didn't get paid much, so I suppose that counts as a failure.

madamedefarge - hmmm dont need Poirot to tell me that some of the statements on here are fiction

As I have long suspected Anyone truly with that level of education and breeding wold never be so gauche as to discuss the 'poor and ttheir shortcomings

Sorry about spellings its the keyboard atm

It's a quote from the Times by a black lawyer from a poor home. It's there in quotes. Why would anyone think it was about me when it's in quotes and gives the link at the bottom?

The lady has the same issue -that her school was saying you cannot achieve X. I'm just sitting here reading a magazine interview with another successful black woman my age who was told at school you cannot be X when you grow up as little black girls from XYZ cannot be that.

Since when was education solely about getting you a job? What about teaching students civilised values and giving them some sense of cultural heritage? You can do that through lots of different subjects, though I would have thought things like English Lit, History and RS would be critical here. And, I suppose, something like media studies would have its place too in that it would teach students about the world around them. As does Geography. It's not just about getting a job.

Music isn;t a soft subject.

Thats my two pence worth.

Get very sick of being told I teach a soft subject.

Yeah! We're elite.....

T think the point is that they have the opportunity to receive a uni education rather than 50% are good enough to go...

How do you define betwen vocational and academic without putting a social value on the quals?

Dh is studying lighting design and technology at Uni; I studied RS and Philosophy- one clearly academic, the other vocational.

DH's course is not easier than mine however,and I suspect very few could complete it. I couldn't, anymore than he could have done mine. There is a significant amount of physics and maths included, as well as a lot of practical lab work and CAD training.

If the quals were valued as equal but different and separated I couldn't see the issue, but they wouldn't be, DH's would be downgraded. HE colleges don't necessarily attract the same funding, so they would struggle with the equipment which is by nature far more costly than the set of books and a projector my course required (and my MA atm needs no more). The future earnings of DH and his classmates is likely to be higher than of my contemporaries, particularly as there is a shortage of people in aspects of the field and each year accrues a licence to practice (rigging, pyrotechnics, IEE).

If they could be separated down, funding reviewed and people seriosuly rejig their assumptions on the value of institutions, that might be positive but people won't do that, universities (and departments can be more prestigious than the actual uni) need fields of excellence to attract funding so won't want to let that go (it is teaching, art and documentary production at my university that attracts cash,advanced technology at DH's) and tbh,we as a society need indivuiduals with well regarded vocational training as much as academics. Sidelining vocational training into 'lesser' institutions won't help anyone bar Oxbridge students, and they have the status anyway.

If an institution wants to distinguish itself it should be doing soby promoting excellence, rather than sneering at alternatives.

And of course LeQueen university education is about more than the degree... it's about learning, life, developing self esteem and rounding yourself off as a person.

Trust me, as a person from a poor background who got the chance to study later on,there were massive personal gains from my degree above the value of the 'ticket to employment'. If I wish to accrue adebt doing that, which after all has to be paid back by anyone earning over £15k a year so not a high salary,surely that is my choice? If the argument is that employers know which institutions they value anyway, why should those grads worry? The means to select is already there.

When you get peopleon a thread stating that (these werechosenas I was accepted by both,but attended neitehr) Bristolis areal Uni and any employer will select someone from there overGloucester.... why should the Bristol grads be so worried that they wish for a complete change inprovision?

Now, WRT to giving students accuarate expectations I would agree with you, but that should also include the experience and personal development aspects of HE.

But they are still furthering their education and their ways of thinking.I fail to see the importance of why that is worthless because it isn't at a RUssel group Uni or rubbing shoulders with the elite.

Totally agree with LeQueen, if you are going to spend £25k or more then you really want to feel it has been worthwhile.