Worthless qualifications at state schools

[Judy1234]

Wise words.
Pick solid GCSEs in proper subjects - take a language, take English lit and lang, take maths, geography, history and 2 or 3 proper sciences and get just 8 or 9 in traditional subjects with good grades.

"The headmaster of Harrow has accused many state schools of deceiving children by entering them for ?worthless? qualifications. Barnaby Lenon said that grade inflation and a shift to vocational qualifications was masking a failure to teach enough pupils to a good standard.

?Let us not deceive our children, and especially children from poorer homes, with worthless qualifications so that they become like the citizens of Weimar Germany or Robert Mugabe?s Zimbabwe, carrying their certificates around in a wheelbarrow,? he told a conference.

?[Let?s not] produce people like those girls in the first round of The X Factor who tell us they want to be the next Britney Spears but can?t sing a note.?

He cited media studies as an example of a soft subject, for which many schools were keen to enter students because it was easier for them to get a good grade. The real route to a good job in one of the professions, he said, was good grades in traditional academic subjects such as maths, sciences and languages."

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/school_league_tables/article6998943.ece

Raise the standards of vocational subjects in what way? In what way are the standards too low?

And you are never going to make them 'equal'. The one thing that makes me really cross is this constant comparison and searching for equivalance (and particularly when that is an official thing - that's what causes the bloody misunderstanding int he first place). Discussing Chaucer isn't easier than assembling a performance car engine, and I don't think you really believe that. It's apples and oranges. They are completely different things. Comparing them is pointless, and when you try to do so you sound either snobby or patronising, depending on which way you go. My dad left school at 15 with no qualifications and was apprenticed as a gas fitter. Nobody tried to suggest that was in any way equivalent, or even 'equal' to staying on at school and going to university. He would laugh at the idea himself. However, it was also recognised that it was a useful, and appropriate, job for him.

they are not seen as being equally as good as a GCSE in English. They are more useful than writing a dissertation about Chaucer and yet employers don't treat them with the same respect. Their content needs to be improved so that there is no doubt to employers that they are just as valid if not more so than GCSE English. The QCA or whoever should ask employers what they are looking for and what they expect from these BTechs. Employers need to be at the heart of drawing up these qualifications so that they are accorded the respect that they deserve.

in a country like Germany where engineering is highly regarded, a vocational apprenticeship is very highly regarded and a qualified person has attained a high standard of learning. We should be able to do the same here.

They are only more useful that a dissertation on Chaucer if the skill set required is that of building an engine.

It makes you good to be a gas fitter but it doesn't make you sutiable for jobs like being a surgeon, lawyer, accountant. That's all. There would be no point in making GCSE photography or needlework as hard to pass as GCSE French with an A* in each or no one would pass the easier subjects and the candidates would be left without qualifications or decent grades.

An employer needing a gas fitter is going to recruit the 16 ior 17 year old with experience in that rather than say my son who graduates this year without any experience in gas fitting.

yes, I think for society as a whole, having less English scholars would not impact us greatly, whereas having more engineers would benefit us all enormously. We know that the number of physicists that we are producing is plummeting and this will damage the country. People don't do physics because it is difficult, but people choose English in huge numbers because they like it and feel they will be able to pass it.

DH is an engineer. He is very protective of the status of engineering as a profession There is a difference between an academically and professionally qualified engineer and a highly trained and vocationally qualified technician. Especially in Germany apparently, but also in the UK.

An it also has to be understood that there are different levels of vocational qualifications. There is no one size fits all. And yet here we are again, trying to make everything and everyone 'equivalent'

I would scrap GCSEs in gas fitting, that should be something an employer trains you up for, I don't think schools should train you for that.

Academically dad would not have been able to train as a surgeon or a lawyer Xenia. Has he tried he'd have been very disappointed very quickly. Like many school leavers. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make there TBH.

GCSEs in gas fitting? What are you talking about?

I was trying to raise the respect for vocational qualifications, because I am not against them. If it is not possible to do it, that's OK, it will just mean that they are not regarded as highly. Then as Xenia says children will have to pick their subjects carefully in order to stand a good chance of getting a job.

Regarded as highly for which jobs though? You want someone to do engineering analysis, you go for the graduate. You want someone to machine the components, you go for a technician. Most graduate engineers can't work machine tools. Different skill set. Apples and oranges. Employers would know that, I should imagine, and value either and both as required.

And yes, schools should certainly give good guidance to their students as to which qualifications are most appropriate for them. As I've said.

I agree with you, its horses for courses. I don't think BTechs are "soft" courses, I think engine building etc. is tough and I hope people respect it. I think the original point was about "soft" subjects such as media studies (according to the head of Harrow), which students were being encouraged to take, and what impact these courses would have on people's employment prospects.

Ah, media studies. Well, that's kind of a cross over between vocational and academic I suppose. And yes, students need to be carefully advised when they choose their A levels...

And of course there are huge numbers of jobs that any idiot can do and attract only the minimum wage because they are dead easy. It's not always the case that Mrs A can be a surgeon and Mrs B has a different skill set and can clean the hospital toilets and both are good skills. Mrs A is probably pretty good at loo cleaning too as am I having had so many years of practice at it at home.

25% of Britain's wealth is from the City of London so I'm not so sure in a service economy we do need a lot of skills relating to goods. We need to be encouraging foreign bankers to settle here because of a benign tax regime otherwise the tax take will be low many many public sector workers will be out of work.

I think we are very lucky in the UK that most professions you start working reasonably young rather than having to have years and years of pointless extra study until age 30 when you live like a kidult at home without a wage and cannot marry or have children. We don't want to go the German/Italian route really. People learn a lot through doing. I've been doing what I do since I was 21 and that's much better than if I were still studying to 30.

Yes they need to be advised, because more people are beginning to believe that they are all much of a muchness, and so will not make discriminating choices. The interesting thing is that the independent schools etc. are not following the trend and therefore are gaining an advantage over the rest of us.

The problem with a service economy is that it can't guarantee decent wages for a huge portion of the population. The city, I think, employs less than 1 million people. Yes I agree, I think we have got the balance right with respect to starting work. Most of us don't need to be over qualified with PhDs etc.

I suspect though Xenia, that you would be unable to safely service your own boiler, or re-wire your house, which even in a service-driven economy are necessary jobs. You could learn I'm sure, as an intelligent woman, but why would you want to? So you should be quite glad that someone else does, no? And indeed value that?

"25% of Britain's wealth is from the City of London "
the dire straits we are in is due to them as well

yes I agree with that example LeQueen due to the large difference in IQ.

but I think that if you took people of equal high IQ, more of them would be good at English than at physics

Yes LeQueen. I said that about both my dad and Xenia in fact. And I don't see it as unfair.

But I'm not sure what it has to do with anything. Just because some jobs could be done by a larger proportion of the population, doesn't make them less useful, and of less value, than jobs that can be done by a smaller section.

TheFallenMadonna, it's important because it determines the wages. If lots of people can do something then the wages are usually lower than jobs which only a few do can do