Worthless qualifications at state schools

[Judy1234]

Wise words.
Pick solid GCSEs in proper subjects - take a language, take English lit and lang, take maths, geography, history and 2 or 3 proper sciences and get just 8 or 9 in traditional subjects with good grades.

"The headmaster of Harrow has accused many state schools of deceiving children by entering them for ?worthless? qualifications. Barnaby Lenon said that grade inflation and a shift to vocational qualifications was masking a failure to teach enough pupils to a good standard.

?Let us not deceive our children, and especially children from poorer homes, with worthless qualifications so that they become like the citizens of Weimar Germany or Robert Mugabe?s Zimbabwe, carrying their certificates around in a wheelbarrow,? he told a conference.

?[Let?s not] produce people like those girls in the first round of The X Factor who tell us they want to be the next Britney Spears but can?t sing a note.?

He cited media studies as an example of a soft subject, for which many schools were keen to enter students because it was easier for them to get a good grade. The real route to a good job in one of the professions, he said, was good grades in traditional academic subjects such as maths, sciences and languages."

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/school_league_tables/article6998943.ece

oh ignore her, Peachy, X is like an Edwardian lady who enjoys the exotic foods upon her table but gives no thought or respect to those who produce it.

(funny but that is one thing I hate peoplebeing rude about my DH who I think is amazing)

what would you prefer? he sat at home post redundany rather than getting a new competitkivecareer?

Seriously,an architecturallighting company donated thousands to his Unil last week for the chance tolecture them; bet University didn't say 'hey, sorry but no that course isn't a real one, have your cash back'.

The workrequired by Dh is far more thanmy academic course ever asked of me. Iadmire him for the sheer grunt involved,esp.as he could ahve resigned years ago and spent thelast decade on what used to be called Incapacity Support and he has started his own business.

Joke?nah Damned inspiring yes.

Your dh is amazing. You are rightly proud. X should be ashamed of her narrow minded views.

But I daresay she doesn't have to grace or guts, or even the basic insight to acknowledge she is wrong.

Exactly NH.

What is wrong is students being led to believe certain qualifications will lead to certain results.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a variety of choices. What is wrong is for students who want to pursue a certain career being misinformed as to what is, and what is not, acceptable to the universities they may need to go to in order to fulfill their ambitions.

But Xenia does have a point. The only reason the private sector does do so well is because they encourage their pupils to achieve a high standard. It would be a disgrace if those children didn't achieve the top grades really, with all their advantages, small classes, coursework being given in and out until achieving the top marks,no disruptive pupils, the relativey low standard of the examinations being taken, after all that is what the parents re paying for (plus, obviously the glossy hair and the lacrosse etc etc, yawn) Those children, in turn, are being given a false sense of how intelligent they actually are.

She doesread sometimes,I now her views on carers changed once.

As a family,I think we are achieving:I don't think DH cares l;esswhether his degree was a degree, license orany other name,norwhere it was taught. Aslong as accessis funded and he gets to study what he hasalways wanted. Which is as it should be.I'm doing an MA now (in Autism) as wellasmy carer role.

All in all, I think we're OK.... we may be unabletofit some narrow definitions of success but really,it is relative. Starting points differ. Life throws hurdlesandyou can fall at them or make them into challenges which is what we try to do. SOmetimes wefail, c'est la vie.

DH's degree is awarded degree status,and is taught at a Uni.If Xenia has issue with that I can let her have the address of the Dean. He might get a bit narked though as the course is very over subscribed and wellregarded, chances are they quite like having it.Dh just studies it where it is offered, as you would.

Also- an option Dh also considere
d is medical technology, and he may yet go on to study that one day. With all the willin the world,your Oxbridge RG educated Medics are going to struggle if the technology specialists of today are persuaded it is a lesser subject or not given access to a funded university to teach it. No point doing a triple heart bypass if the life support machine is lying unserviced somewhere is it? Dh'sdegree covers the samemodules as the med specialists, and is interchangeable at this stage.

You can do a lot through environment. I think we're 50/50 genes and environment. So I think you could take some primary school children in the state sector and get them to sing the Allegri Misereri for example although would you have teachers in state schools who could sing the lower parts? I suppose you could ship them in . It's an expectation thing. Have high expectations and children meet them often as not, both at home and school.

(I genuinely thought that supposed degree course was a joke , sorry)

On the GCSE example above whcih I don't now have on the same page from memory much of it was okay but it seemed to lack history and geography. I suspect if you just went back to the core subjects in school certificate in 1944 which my mother took those are the ones you want children to do today and they would do in good private schools and state grammars - Engl lang and lit, maths, 2 or 3 sciences, a language or ideally two, history and geography.

i think a lot of geneticists and psychology would debate that 50/50 thing

I agree genes and environment is amix.certainly so.

the xampleof the choir was interesting....DS3 is we aretold a talentedchoralsinger,sand with Male VoiceChoir via school and theChoir Master approached us to tell us.School droppedChoir this term,coststoomuch apparently.

We're trying to find an alternativeforhim.

It does show though how even small differences can affect someone's life chances.
DS3 is bright (I read with the class socan compare well) but dyslexic, probably ahs other SEN of the dyspraxic variety. hislife chances therforeareautomatically reduced- who wants a dyspraxic surgeon? Paring down 'fripperies' such as choir and out of school clubs reduces that even further.

Xenia apology accepted but still a bit annoyed so will avoid that aspect of topic now I have said my piece.

Ultimately people will study where courses are offered. If people have issues with that being in Unioversities it is not thestudents who should be frowned upon, contact the Vice Chancellors and complain! When it comes to industry standard exams,location makes no difference to the student anyway,a tech lab isatech lab.

Done me good anyway- have been really narky with dh about being so busy with Uni / work:I need to remember he is fab LOL

Xenia. Why are you using 'poor' when you mean 'state school-educated'? I don't understand.

DS2

DS3 can barely talk!

because only poor people would send their children to state school, obviously!

Though poor generally means crack smoking posties in X world.

Yes I only teach children in rags who have to sell crack cocaine so they can buy a sausage roll for lunch.

Oi Twinset are you dissing my kidz?

mond,as we grew up in somewrset,its not somuch greggs rolls but apples they scrumped

(Actually they have Innocent Smoothiesfor their snack and school dinners, not free ones either)

Plus, in private schools, if a pupil isn't up to the exam they are simply not entered. Whereas the GCSE results you anayse from state schools include everyone. (Since we seem to have degenerated into sweeping generalisations thanks to X).

(As someone who has a child bang in the midst of GCSEs, I was enjoying this debate, however I cannot quite believe Xenia is serious when she talks of 'the poor'. Although it does go to show, money may buy you privilege but it can't buy you class. All fur coat and no knickers as my dear Grandmother would say).

And the most useless degree in terms of future employment is also the most popular. Criminology. I blame CSi.

LOL at Criminology- I have seen admission lecturers almost weep over that. And yes,they blame CSi as well!

My experience ofPrivate ed purely through those I grew up with,my XF /BIL /Sister's XP and their friends,was that soem very bright indeed children grew up lazy becuase things were too easy for them, and consequently did very littlelater on and at Uni (XP gotexcellent grades,a pale at york to do maths and then didnt attendlectures all Yr 2 as it was too ahrd to get out of bed)

Other talented people with no reala cademic ability wrere talked into Uni- sister's XP went to study aeronautics, failed dismally and now has his own thriving business related to mechanics but far more specialist. A waste of timefor him.

Of course that is a snapshot and they were all friom oneschool( a wellregarded one) but it did awaken me to reality a bit. In fact XP'sassertion that Iwas too thick and common to go to university was a primary motivator!

And the black barrister in the Times article was motivated because she was told she couldn't be that but I suspect more children are demotivated by being told they cannot do something than are.

93% of children go to state schools so obviously they aren't poor. I was just using it as a distinction.

I haven't had chidlren at private schools which don't enter children for exams they will fail but that's because they are very very academdically selective so no one is there who wouldn't pass. There are plenty of private schools for the not clever rich.

As for special needs the issue of whetehr they are better dealt with in state or private is often debated. My oldest child is mildly dyslexic and has done fine but it's not very bad. There are lots of ways to be successful and if someone will never pass many exams ensuring they are self confident, interesting, have a good accent, useful friends and plenty of opoortunities to feel they are good so internally they feel good about themselves and all their talents can be exploited even if one is not passing exams, is the ideal. I suspect if you have money and pick the right school you can do pretty well for chidlren like that in the private sector and if you think smart about it can pick the right state schools too.

On the choir thing most big towns have wonderful Cathedral choirs. It demands a commitment from the parents to get them there etc but they are not particularly socially exclusive.

The good accent is vital

Thre is a catrhedralchoir here Xenia yes but aswe live outside of toen and the Church Choir is over subscribed it isn't something we have ahd to look into before,he willneed to be 11 first though so we are looking at a youth choir first. The old school choir was excellent,attended a performance in the cathedral at Christmas and they stood out. It is definitely something we won't let go.

SN.....private VS state isn't a debate as there are many private SN schools,espeicall within diagnoses such as ASD. However, the issue of inclusion in priavte certainly is a debate worth having I would guess. The ASD boys needs wouldn't be catered for by the localprivate anyway, but I know many children with lesser SEN that domuch better in private education,and it has been a wonderful thing for them. Indeed,if we didn't have the ASD as well we would move dyslexic ds2 to a school back home which is a private dyslexia school- and do so happily. Of course, without the ASD I would then be working.

Access to specialist help within a positive environment is IMO the key factor in choposing any school- and that can be found or absent in state just as much as private.

Yes children can be demotibvated by negative comments, V true. And indeed it was that sort of crap that consigned that engagement ring to the dustbin (OK so I gave it to my teenage sister LOL). But that can perhaps indicate that some level of adversity can be a positive for children with certain character traits. not negativity perhaps, but a challenge and experiences that show them what is ut there. If i had notmet XP and his friends I am not sure University would ever have been thought of after I gavce up on it at 18; exposure to children with different backgrounds is important in changing things for the disadvantaged children.

AS gfor the accent- I do have that, bizarrely, it is an off shoot of the gentics that led to the boy'sASD (IMO) that I have pedantic speech when in many environments.

And dialect Somerset when not LOL.

Yes,itrdoes help, I ahve been hired for my posher accent before.Sadly perhaps,but true,

I don't think it's accents per se that are the problem. I have quite a strong one, but have worked in a magic circle law firm, appeared in front of hundreds of judges etc.

I think the problem lies in coloquial expressions and incorrect sentence structure. Children need to know when to drop that stuff but many can't.

They tend to speak how their parents speak at home.

"pretty soon you won't be able to get a grade D. Instead, there'll be A, A, AA, AA, AAA, AAA(With Glittery Silvery Spangles), AAA(With Glittery Silver Spangles & A Gold Cluster) etc, etc...it's made a mockery of the whole process "
agree with that, soon there won't be enough room om the page to print all of the stars

Yesterday DS got marks back for the part of his science GSCEs they did early.

He got As in Chemistry, Biology and Physics. And yet why do I feel kind of deflated with that? In 'my day' that was the top.

But now there are A*s it kind of feels like he is the B grade student. Does that make sense?

Agree LeQueen - I think an A should mean an A.