Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

G&T survey - please help

23 replies

scoutandjem · 22/01/2010 18:36

Good evening, hoping you can spare a couple of minutes to help me out. I am currently in my first placement of my PGCE year and loving it! For my MA I have decided to research provisions in schools for G&T pupils. I currently teach six G&Ts in four different classes in Y10 and Y11 in business studies - none of them knew they were registered as G&T which I found quite strange.

If you are a teacher could you tell me if this is the case at your school

If you are a parent of a G&T child - how did you find out and does your child receive additional / differentiated lessons.

Any info. you can provided me on this subject would be so very gratefully received.

Thank you - Susan

OP posts:
SherriHewsonsNipple · 22/01/2010 18:38

hmm
teacher
do kids know at pres school - no idea havent asked them - do teachers know yes - THINK they have some kind of meeting (luckily dont have to do this)

parent - do kids know yes but arent interested.
( interestingly ds1 is no longer G and t now at a grammar school!!)
are they offered stuff - yes but dont go

TheFallenMadonna · 22/01/2010 18:41

Teacher

Students know and parents are invited to an information evening annually to explain the programme.

Programme includes enrichment activities and summer school.

We all have our G&T students as one of the targeted groups for our PM, so are well aware of who they are.

PixieOnaLeaf · 22/01/2010 18:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

janeite · 22/01/2010 20:51

Teacher
We have a list of pupils in each Yr group: those who are all-rounders and those who shine in a particular subject. Not sure how we tell them anymore as I don't think we have a G&T coordinator.

Parent
It seems quite odd tbh (secondary school). DD1 is incredibly good at English and always has been; also v good at art and languages. Yet we have never been told she is G&T in English or any of the others. We did, however, get a letter once to say that she was G&T in PE (which she hates, apart from dance) and she was involved in a special G&T club for that at one point.

DD2 also talented at English but we have had a letter to say that she is G&T in art and again, there is a special club for that.

So my 'reading' of it is that the more practical subjects push G&T and perhaps the others don't. I may be wrong.

notapushy1 · 22/01/2010 21:20

Parent
My DD has been designated G&T @ her state comp for last 3 years-for English and Music initially then Science and Art
We were sent a whole load of leaflets and a "membership card " for the national organisation and invited to register, but she hasn't actually been away on any courses away - they're either too expensive or clash with other commitments or she isn't eligible on age grounds.
There is a G&T coordinator , but I've yet to meet her.
At school, small groups are picked for extra lunchtime sessions e.g play-reading for English, or taken away on museum outings or workshops for the day a couple of times a term eg for Music- they worked on composition and practical with the LSO @ the Barbican

northernlurker · 22/01/2010 21:28

dd1 is g&t. This was the case at primary where I think they were given slightly different work and she was invited to a free council summer school which she really enjoyed. Now at secondary we've had a letter saying she's g&t there as well. Frankly we couldn't care less and haven't mentioned it to her. She puts a great deal of pressure on herself as it is. We don't need to push her except to get her to apply focus sometimes to a particular thing. She knows she is different from a lot of her friends and she doesn't particularly like it. I expect the school will offer her some opportunities but I certainly won't be looking for them. You might want to consider that at no point have we been asked if we agree with special provision being made for dd1. It is assumed that g&t is a good thing. On balance I think it is but I do wish that the extra opportunities she will get were also made to some degree available to all her friends. In an ideal education sysytem we certainly wouldn't need g&t.

scoutandjem · 22/01/2010 22:08

Thank you so much for your replies. The school I am at is fantastic with SEN pupils who receive learning support and extra lessons were they are needed, so I was a little surprised that G&T pupils were pretty much ignored.

Maybe it is because they are happy just to get on with their work and generally (from my v v limited time as a teacher) cause little or no disruption in class. That old saying who shouts loudest...?

Anyway I have had my quota of wine for the night so will be saying goodnight...here's to our fabulous children! Susan x

OP posts:
cory · 23/01/2010 10:16

Too late to add another one?

Dd was recognised as G&T in Junior school (Yr 3 or 4). But I had known from a very early age that she was verbally gifted, just from her reasoning.

The school offered her and the other G&T children a special lunchtime club, but dd chose not to attend, as she preferred spending her lunchtimes in the open air and with the friends she liked best, regardless of whether they were G&T. We left it up to her (and I have to admit, I agreed about the fresh air).

This did not however mean that the school never met her needs: they streamed in maths and literacy and the maths top set, in particular, was taught at a very good level: the maths teacher did a lot to stimulate them and make them think outside the box.

Tbh I don't think it has ever made any difference to dd to know that she was officially labelled G&T; she knows she loves learning, she has always been very self-motivated, but isn't one of those people who care a lot about results or rewards or labels. She reads in the same way as she would run or jump if she had a gift for that, as something that comes naturally.

Shows her privileged background of course, in that she has always known where to find books, but then again my granddad, who came from a very poor and uneducated background, had that same urge- and found the means to satisfy it.

In the past 5 years dd (who is now in Yr 8) has lost about 30% of her schooling every year, due to physical illness. And for years she was made to feel a failure (attendance issues). But it hasn't made any difference to her love of learning, because that is too closely part of her personality, not something she merely associates with school.

scoutandjem · 23/01/2010 11:14

Not at all too late! My proposal to my University tutor isn't due until mid Feb. I'm just finding that to be a teacher you have to be so organised! I am sitting in my office surrounded by marking, lesson plans, resources, leaving gifts but I should go back downstairs and finish my game of Bionicles with my sons!

So, any more responses will be more than welcome and I'll touch base later.

Have great weekends. Susan x

OP posts:
roisin · 23/01/2010 15:17

ds2 is 10 (yr6). We were told he was on the G&T list at school when he was in yr1. The teacher told us at parents' evening. (For general academic subjects, not music or art or anything). We haven't particularly told him and try not to use the term, as I don't like it. But he does go to a club once a fortnight, which is irritatingly named "Saturday club for gifted and talented children"! So he does know the term! This is a local collaboration between the primary schools and nominated students are invited to join.

Apart from that it varies from year to year with the teacher as to what differentiation he receives. This year his literacy teacher is doing a project with him and one other child, which is encouraging them in their extended writing and they have been writing (short) books and feeding back with each other. This takes place during their lunchbreak.

His Maths teacher recently contacted the secondary school he's going to (unbeknown to us) and asked for suggestions as to how she could challenge/extend him. They have given her some additional suggestions and resources and have also invited ds1 to a 6-week after school programme they are running for yr6 students.

roisin · 23/01/2010 15:22

ds1 is 12 (yr8). We were told by school he was on their G&T list when he was in primary. And most of the above (about ds2) also applies to him in primary.

When he was 7 he had an assessment with an independent Educational Psychologist (about other issues), which also confirmed the exceptional levels of his academic abilities.

At his secondary schools we were invited to meet the G&T co-ordinator at the first parents' evening after his CATs results. He has always received differentiated provision from his regular teachers in his regular classes. Sometimes receiving different homeworks, in-class tasks or projects; sometimes receiving higher targets, and descriptors/assessment criteria to advise him how to meet those targets.

In yr8 he was placed in "high aptitude" groups for almost all subjects (not PE!), but even within these the differentiation is clearly obvious. Teachers seem very willing to put in additional effort to allow him to make progress to a higher level, even if this is outside the expectations for that year group.

wolfbrother · 23/01/2010 15:28

Parent

Received letters today updating us on G and T registers at school.

One of our children now on register for a subject that he doesn't even do any more!!

It doesn't really make any difference at school anyway, but I'm not complaining, as DCs are perfectly well stretched out of school.

TheFirstLady · 23/01/2010 15:37

Hi Susan
My DD is Year 8. We received a letter last year to say she was on the G&T register for art, music and all-round academic ability (I think that is how it was phrased).
So far it has meant that she has been invited on one school trips (for art) and sent information on some (expensive) course run by outside (generally commercial) providers, which we cannot afford to have her do. The quality of them appears to be variable also.
Within school she is in top sets for certain subjects, but doesn't receive any extension work or diffrentiated lessons other than that.
DD2 is on the G&T register at primary school and gets extension work in English, as did DD1 at the same school. I have been officially told about DD2 but not DD1 (she asked me what it meant though after seeing her name on a list the teacher left lying around.)
Another parent told me in the playground that DD3 is also on the G&T register, but I have not been officially informed of that.

JustGettingByMum · 23/01/2010 15:42

Hi, 2 ds on G&T from Y5, now Y12 & Y10. At secondary school we were invited to meeting with the G&T co-ordinator at a regular progress day at the school. Both put on NAGTY register and we were given info re enrichment courses, but it has been down to us to take these forward.
The school say that the G&T students are given differentiated tasks but it isnt particulary obvious.
When DS1 expressed an interest in ICT he was paired up with some older students and once a week they worked under the supervision of an ICT teacher to complete some external microsoft exams. Basically though it was down to him being a self starter and saying he wanted to do this.
The school does seem to put more effort, resource and time into the talented groups and they have lots more opprtunities .
I think they started to address the way they catered for the most academic students, then were given funding for a sports specialism so the focus changed. It's still a good school but hasnt really lived up to the promises they made. Eg began Latin in the lunchtime but it just died away, DS1 advised he is a potential oxbridge candidate but we have had no meetings (2 cancelled both at short notice), nor has DS been given any advice re open days, conferences etc ....

iamdisappointedinyou · 23/01/2010 19:44

I am a parent, not a teacher.
I am not surprised that your G&T students didn't know that they were on the register as postings on here seem to imply that this is quite a common occurrence

DD is gifted. I only found out, at the end of primary, because I was investigating something else. DD's secondary school didn't 'do' G&T (and didn't do much extracurricular either) and were dismissive when I tried to raise the subject with them. Her school did setting and she was in top sets but underperformed. The school don't care: as long as she made them look good by getting the 5 GCSE, it didn't bother them that it was less than she should have got.
The school, despite quite a good catchment area, only gets average results.

DS is gifted and talented. He knows this because he got into a (different but still comprehensive) school on ability. This school have a different take on G&T and celebrate it: they run days-out for them, introduction to Oxbridge etc. They also do loads of extra curricular for all the pupils. They get fantastic results.
I don't know if he receives differentiated academic lessons. I know what lessons he gets (when he feels like telling me, that is) but I don't know what lessons other kids get so how would I know if he gets differentiation unless someone specifically tells me?
He is also talented in sport which is easier to spot - if they are always A team and get picked for County it sort of gives it away. They get additional training, which is differentiated.

It has occurred to me that it might be interesting to see what specialist schools do with their G&T. Some schools only take on a specialism for the extra funding that comes with it. Others really go with the concept and actually use the power to select the 10%. I wonder if they have different attitudes to G&T?

scoutandjem · 24/01/2010 19:59

Fantastic replies - thank you. It is my last week this week and have bought pens, sweets and fruit flakes for my Y7s and Y10s who I pend most time with!

I am planning to chat with the assistant principal (who heads up G&T) about some of your comments and his plans to challenge the pupils further.

Hve a great week and anymore replys will be read and certainly referenced in my report (proposal / MA etc.)

Susan x

OP posts:
Cortina · 25/01/2010 10:51

Hi

Can't offer any experience with my own children, unfortunately , but I am interested in this subject and how we see 'intelligence' and 'ability' in children more generally.

I am interested that the ,intelligence, is not fixed and can develop and grow in all of us.

It seems many think of giftedness and talent as meaning possessing 'inherent all round ability' when what it should mean is that the current level of performance surpasses that of the peer group.

There is lots of talk about 'potential' at the moment it seems but it can be dangerous if we think of it in terms that some children have 'greater potential' than others.
If we think like this we might think that low achieving students have less 'potential' than high achieving students when you can equally reason the other way around. Those that haven't achieved much yet have 'more' potential.

From what I've been reading we should be concentrating on believing that intelligence isn't fixed and believing that all students aren't working anywhere near their ability ceiling.

I've written on another thread about 'ability' labelling and the inherent dangers. A child that has been labelled 'gifted and talented' early on is unlikely to be re-categorised after a run of poor results. It's likely that a reason will be found, he's got in with bad company etc. The 'bright' child will be described as not living up to its potential. A child that is seen as academically weak is unlikely to be 'upgraded' if they go on to do well. There's a danger 'over achieving' weak student will be credited with lots of effort rather than suddenly becoming 'gifted and talented' etc.

There's some statistics that say less than half of the children who came in the top 5% on national tests at 11 go on to remain in the top 5% at GCSE. Despite this the Times Educational Supplement in 2006 reported on a plan between the DfES and Specialist Schools and Academies Trust to encourage universities to establish links with pre-teen students who do very well in these year 6 tests. The Trust's chariman is apparently convinced that 'bright' 11 year olds should achieve 3 A's at A level and wants the heads of secondary schools 'held accountable' if children don't make the grade.

Gifted and Talented students will be registered cannot be 'let down' by secondary schools.

Most of these ideas are explored by Bill Claxton and regurgitated here by me. He writes about the Pygmalion effect in other words self fulfilling prophecy, whether the students inclusion is justified or not. He also says they may suffer pressure by being 'registered bright' and become anxious and conservative learners. Those who don't make the list could suffer from a reverse Pygmalion effect and stand less chance of pushing their way forward if they are a late developer, or they might be comfortable without the pressure and lead a happier life.

The 'bright' children in our primary school are given extension work so higher SATS grades will more likely be on the cards etc. I'd argue that more than the 'top' table could do the work with encouragement, and so it goes on.

I heard about a study done where two 'gifted and talented' pupils were identified in various primary school classes. They tested IQ and performance and found the highest achievers. They then fed back false results to the teachers of the classes (2 children were chosen at random) guess what? The performance and 'ability' of the 'chosen' children increased exponentially, they became 'gifted and talented'.

I am not suggested that children should not be stretched and interested in your view.

Lancelottie · 25/01/2010 11:03

Parent here.

DS1 (state secondary) is on both the G&T and SEN registers. He gets a huge amount of extra input for the SEN, but the only G&T input has been to send us (and him) a letter inviting him to join NAGTY. He hasn't been remotely interested yet. Nothing happens at school -- or maybe it does, and he declines it; hard to tell.

DS2 (different state secondary) is apparently G&T in music. I'd say he's determined rather than talented, but it's opened up access to lots of nice stuff for him lunchtime workshops, afterschool bands, trips to shows which keeps him keen, so it's probably self-perpetutating.

(ponders whether lunchtime composition workshops woud actually be seen as a treat by most kids and suspects not...)

Lancelottie · 25/01/2010 11:09

Oh, you asked how we found out and whether the children know:

Informed by letter for DS1, saying he'd been identified through CAT tests as gifted in science and English (ironic, as he refused to have anything to do with science in school). He had a similar letter.

Word of mouth for DS2 (as in 'Mum! Mum! I'm Gifted and Talented so ner ner to [DD] cos she's the one who isn't now and I get extra lessons and there's a trip next week and I need my instrument on Thursday and there's a competition and I don't know what I've done with the form...'
No official information, but he probably lost it.

iamdisappointedinyou · 25/01/2010 11:47

"There's some statistics that say less than half of the children who came in the top 5% on national tests at 11 go on to remain in the top 5% at GCSE ... The Trust's chariman is apparently convinced that 'bright' 11 year olds should achieve 3 A's at A level and wants the heads of secondary schools 'held accountable' if children don't make the grade."

I can think of two arguements about this (there are prob more ...).
The first says that Y6 G&T may 'level out' and that is why they are no longer in the top 5% at GCSE. An easy, brush-it-under-the-carpet answer.
The other says that they find it all too easy when they are young and can do schoolwork with minimum effort. This is OK at Y6, but they come a cropper at GCSE and A Level when a bit more application is required. They are let down by the school because they are not taught how to learn, how to study.
These days, one in eight pupils get 3x A grade A Levels: that is a sizeable percentage. Someone should be asking why kids who were considered bright at 11 y.o. aren't amongst that group.

Cortina · 25/01/2010 12:06

I think Claxton in his research is trying to say that spurts and dips in school performance are the rule rather than the exception.

In 'Brightening up: how children learn to be gifted' he talks about how the 'label' gifted is sometimes given to children who have already developed certain social and learning skills and attitudes, asking questions derived from what has just been said etc. It's easier for children to be labelled 'gifted' if they have been lucky enough to grow up in families where these behaviours are modelled and encouraged.

I think he's saying that the label doesn't mean the child is necessarily any more 'gifted' in terms of inherent ability and all children can dip and spurt hence the stats. The labels at 11 don't necessarily mean much etc.

Cortina · 25/01/2010 12:15

Agree about the not being taught to learn in many cases. If you are 'gifted' and you struggle you may 'believe' you have reached the ceiling of your ability or perhaps are not as smart as others have said. You might be scared to take risks, be cautious, not question and experiment etc. It can lead to 'imposter syndrome' as an adult (especially if you are female).

Labels can be dangerous and limiting.

scoutandjem · 25/01/2010 19:50

Excellent points Cortina!

I am joining potential G&T Y7s on Thursday on "Learning Progress day" when they have an interview with tutor and with their parents present. Should be very interesting.

I shall let you know

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page