Thinking ahead...entrance exams for GDST schools

[mumofyr5dd]

I'm thinking ahead here, but I have a dd in yr 5 of an ok state school - she is bookish and reasonably bright. We'ld like her to go to the local GDST school when she gets to year 7. How is the entrance exam for children from state schools? Would she need extra preparation (I wouldn't get a tutor but we could prepare at home)? If she needed preparation, when would you start - autumn term of year 6 or before?

She's doing well at school (levels 4a for maths and 5 for english and science in her latest assessments) but she won't have had much experience of exam type situations.

Thanks...

Our DSs went to a GDST (Prep) school that was intensely selective at every stage and frankly a state school child would never have got in to senior school without going to a very selective Prep or having intense private coaching - which without exception every child did.

Some of the GDST schools outside the South East are not quite so selective but still very academic. It really depends where you are.

So is it exam technique that needs coaching, and reasoning type problems - or is it more a case of state schools not covering the required material in maths / english?

just had a look at the Sydenham High School sample papers on the web and they look very similar to the 11+ papers produced by NFER (now called GL Assessment), so very similar to grammar school entrance papers. The English papers look like standard comprehension papers. On the maths side the syllabus is based on Key Stage 2, but some of the topics like algebra and equations will probably not have been covered by the time your DD takes the test. However, they are not particularly difficult and you can teach them yourself.
I think you can tutor her yourself and do well in these exams. I have been tutoring my DS for the 11+ and we have started a year early. That way you have time to try lots of past papers and identify any areas of weakness and cover them adequately.

Thanks claig, that is very useful. Looking at the Sydenham High School sample paper they don't look too bad at all. We've done algebra at home for fun anyway. I'll scoot around and see if I can find some more example papers. I'm hoping to keep any preparation low key - years ago my mother prepared me for the 11+ and made all the preparation seem like puzzles and games so that it was only much later that I realised I had been prepared for a whole year, I think I should probably start soon.

go to 11plus.co.uk loads of free papers on there, very good site. Also buy the NFER papers and also Bond 11+ papers in Smiths. Start as soon as you can, she will enjoy it once she starts seeing her improvement. Don't forget that she will face stiff competition from the prep school pupils who prepare for these sort of tests at school. If she is well prepared she can beat them

I'm not sure that all the GDST schools do the same tests. It looks like Sydenham does just English and Maths, Blackheath does English, Maths and Verbal Reasoning, Birkenhead does only non-verbal reasoning.
Probably worth ringing the one you are interested in and finding out which test they do.

mumofyr5dd - my impression from the internal tests that the GDST school did on its own Prep school pupils was that every child had to be Grade 5 on every subject to be certain to get in to the senior school because thay had so many applicants.

Partly techique and partly ability and at a bare minimum they aimed to get children to a stage that was at least a year ahead of the National Curriculum by end of Yr 6. To be honest the SATs were just an incidental exam during Yr 6. They did internal coacjing in the school with weaker pupils but ruthlessly removed them at Yr2 and YR 6 if they did not catch up to the minimum level required.

This was the South East though and I know that other schools in the GDST are not as academically selective as what I have described here.

I would get a tutor now tbh.

Thanks for that ? I assumed all GDST schools would be the same but I am
fairly sure the prospectus says maths, English, verbal and non-verbal reasoning (I
think both - the prospectus is at home and
I'm at work!).
Dd is already (allegedly) at level 5 in most subjects and her teacher expects her to be at level 5 in maths by the end of yr 5, so I don?t think ability will be the problem ? I think unfamiliarity with exam technique and VR/NVR type papers will be more of a problem. I think I need to find out what is involved in more detail then find the closest approx to the papers for her to practice on for fun.

(I don?t want to put any more pressure on her with a tutor ? she already puts enough
pressure on herself with all her music exams etc.)

ABetaDad - that's incredibly depressing. I went to a GDST (GPDST!) from a state primary way back when and indeed most of their scholarships were from the state sector, and we also made up a high proportion of the school's Oxbridge/3 As results. The entrance exam in those days was maths and English, ie what we did at school, and the second round was understanding a physics experiment - ie what we certainly didn't do at school and I presume no one had been coached for. These days I presume they get a bunch of drilled robots. There again these days everyone gets 5 A*s at A level so they presumably don't care.

So much depends on the actual school tbh, and how competitive it is. Round here it is standard to tutor for a year beforehand whether you are in state or prep, but some of that is down to having grammar schools as well where only the marks matter, and a single mark is the difference between pass and fail (and even looking at the average mean of those who passed, it is only 5% above the cut-off mark). GDST interview as well, so your dd has a chance to chine there too.

She needs to know exam technique. Very bright children can make mistakes by reading do much into the questions and not keeping it simple enough.

bellisima - yes it is depressing. Our DSs had to leave the school as they did not take boys after age 8.

However, we thought the whole business of intense selection was just insane. We actually moved out of the South East to get away from it.

Although academic achievement is important to us and our DSs were quiet capable of handling the pace of the work they were given we were horrified by the pressure parents and children were under to pass the entrance exams.

At a recent open morning I was next to a parent with a child in a state primary school and the staff told her that her child would need about a year's worth of tutoring to stand a chance of getting in. However, this was at a very competitive school so your local school might not be as bad.

it depends where you are - the nearest GDST school to us is not academic at all and I suspect most kids would be able to sail through the exam with no preparation - however, the next nearest is much more robust academically and the entrance process is correspondingly tougher

Does tutoring cover any more than exam technique? I can see that exam technique could be an issue (although possibly less so for the current generation of children who are tested and assessed so often??).

I'm torn between seeing that the school would suit my dd down to the ground - she got on very well with the teachers at an open day (there are no state girls schools or grammar schools near us) - and not wanting to put any pressure on her. Dd is self motivated and enjoys learning and I would worry that pressure would destroy that.

Don't be put off by some of the replies on here. Your DD sounds very bright and as long as she has covered all of Y6 maths and she has practiced VR/NVR (timed) she won't need a tutor. She will need to do practice papers though. My DD sat for Putney & Wimbledon High schools last year and passed for both. We didn't use a tutor. Judging by some of the girls in her class who were offered places at these schools, I wouldn't say the standard was particularly high. She didn't go to either of them in the end.
Good luck and don't be unduly concerned by people who tell you that these schools are 'very difficult to get in to'. It tends to be people who have daughters at the school who say this!

I would second JazT's comments. My DD1 seemed bright to us but couldn't get on academically at all at her state primary (albeit very happy otherwise). In KS2 SATS she scraped a 4 in Maths, and only a 3 in Writing although did get 5 in Reading. She is also an August birthday! Didn't want to pressure so had no coaching but did get a few Non Verbal Reasoning papers (age 9-10 not 11+) just to give her an idea.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, she squeaked in even though it was a very over subscribed year. Doing brilliantly academically now and still very happy. Also bright and bookish and into music). Best decision ever for us.

So I think it depends on the school very much as some are much easier to get into than others. BUT could be worth finding out how many girls are in her year in the junior department (go to an Open Day) as some years are very low on numbers which takes the pressure off.

Good luck!

My sense is that the last few posts are correct.Reasonably bright dC from state schools with or without a tutor can get in to GDST schools even the so-called top ones such as Putney and wimbledon.

My question is why put do the schools persist with this excessive selection process clouded in mystery as to who gets in??

GDST schools get a report from dC school, they interview DC, review pieces of their work and then they get them to sit 2 or 3 hours of exams.

Truth is there are some DC who will definetley get in (level 5 and 4a at end of year 5) and some kids who no matter how much tutoring will struggle to get in (say level 3). Then there are some DC who might get in with tutoring etc providings their school reports are good, reading age high etc.I think the mystery surrounding the process is fundamentally about creating value upon which the fees are based.

If not, couldn't we be told more explicitly what standards they are looking for so as to save lots of money and time for everyone, and stress for DC.(Why would prep school dc at GDST primary schools also pay for a tutor - just how good are the teachers at these schools compared to much derided state school teachers)

I suspect the whole mystery and hoops are part of GDST (and others) differentiating their 'product' from state schools. I am happy to be wrong on this and will stand corrected if a GDST admissions permission tells me so and why.

We don't have any GDST in our area but we do have a very good academically selective school which clearly tells parents what is expected. They have excellent bursaries and actively want bright children from all backgrounds.

So I would hope that if you contact the school and ask them what preparation is needed they should be able to tell you. There's no point you spending time on NVR if they don't do it; you need to know if maths/VR/comprehension is multiple choice or not; is there essay writing?

Great post Zanzibarmum-I couldn't agree more. My experience of Wimbledon & Putney High Schools is that they're really not that selective, or certainly not as selective as they would have people believe. And I too am very puzzled about the amount of extra tuition for DC at their prep schools that goes on. I know for a fact that in some cases the schools actually recommend that the DC in question gets a tutor to 'bring them up to standard' (a friend of mine at Putney is in this situation now). So they select at 4, weed out the one's they selected but got wrong, and they still need extra tuition...?! As you say, how good can the teachers be? (Jaz walks away, shaking head and muttering...)

i went to a GPDST school and i remember going for a test one saturday but never did my parents dream of tutoring us just to get in- surely if a child needs that much tutoring won't they struggle when they are actually at the school without the extra help? maybe i'm just totally out of touch

I totally agree. Am waiting very anxiously to hear the results of some entrance exams my son sat (not GDST obviously), believing that they're "oversubscribed by 3:1" (or even 4:1). However since most people take 3 or 4 entrance exams, what does that really mean (and are the figures that are bandied about even true?) I'd like to understand how schools decide how many offers to make, based on the fact that they may not be first choice for quite a proportion of people (for example these two schools are the most academic ones my DS is taking, but for other people, they might be the least academic ones).

Incidentally I went to a GDST school and can definitely confirm that then (30 yrs ago mind) it wasn't too tough to get into judging by some of the girls who then left without a single O level!

I's a simple sales tactic - many people want to buy this expensive and exclusive "product"; if you don't buy someone else in the very long queue will.

I heard on one private school claim 100 applicants for 24 places - around only 40 DC turned up at the exam.

I think I understand now why so many private school headteachers feel they must knock the state sector

From our DD's experience to get into GDST Sydenham High you don't need to be particularly bright, but to get an academic scholarship you need to prepare for the entrance exams, and work through the sample papers. Most children who get the scholarships have tutors. Our DD was at the GDST Sydenham High junior school already when she did the year 7 entry tests. Through her time at the junior school she was consistently in the top 2 in the class, yet didn't get a scholarship as we didn't do the sample papers with her or get a tutor. This was our mistake but we assumed she was already at the level required to get a scholarship. No-one at the school talked or warned us about this.