Alevel maths - can DS really not be up to it?

[grownupbabes]

DS has just started AS. He got all A and A* for GCSEs, including A for maths. He is now doing maths, physics, music and a language for A level - but his school has told him (after just 5 weeks)that his maths isn't up to it. They are insisting he drop maths. Surely an A at GCSE is a good enough to be going on with?
The problem is that he needs maths as a prerequisite for what he wants to do at university. If he drops maths, he won't be able to follow his dream. Surely they ought to let him give it a go. How hard can it be? Can they really tell he is going to fail after 5 weeks? He has always been a very good student in all subjects.
Feeling really quite angry about this. Any maths teachers out there who can advise? Or anyone else had any similar experience? Is this about league table scores, and not my son's future?

Personally, I'd drop the language, and use that time to put more time into the maths. The revision guides are good for working through and through the problems. If he needs another AS, he could always have a gap year and do the AS in that year

FWIW I got an A at GCSE and struggled with A level maths - I'd really reached the extent of my interest. In my physics degree, I never found the maths any easier, but could at least apply it.

Is your son planning on doing Physics and Music ? Several of my friends at uni did that, and at least one is now a sound engineer

yes I think it sounds too early too

I loved A level maths (interesting that it's still quite modular almost 20 years after I took it!). It may be that they've started with one module he doesn't quite get yet but they have loads of other ones like mechanics and geometry etc. etc.

What has your son said about it? Is he finding it hard? Perhaps he's not been applying himself?

I would keep an open mind and see what the maths teachers say but also have a word with ds and find out if it might be an effort problem (rather than an understanding one). I can imagine that the leap from GCSE to A level is quite large and perhaps he's feeling a bit demotivated because of that.

I teach AS maths, and there are a few students I have met who did very well at GCSE but struggle at AS level. If I had a student who was pbviously struggling after 2 weeks I would talk to them. I strongly believe that it is unfair to allow a student to continue with a subject if they are not going to do well in it wihtout letting them consider the options themselves.

I would never tell a student to drop a subject althuogh I might strongly suggest they consider swapping to another subject. A student who has A and A* grades at GCSE shuodl be doing 4 AS levels.

I would suggest you ask the teacher for some specific information on what he is struggling with in maths, and what extra support is available. Some 1 to 1 with a maths teacher would not be unreasonable to ask for IMO.

I assume he is doing a modular course? If so his first exams are after the XMas holiday and he will receive the results a couple of months later and you can see how he does.

ANd now for devil's advocate If he is struggling wiht it, and he is doing physics and wants to persue a career that relies on maths - maybe now is the time to rethink before he goes too far down the route and it's harder to change. Also, of course I have no idea what he is thinking of in the future, but the combination of AS levels he has is unusual and I'd want to be certain that they will allow him to do the course he plans at Uni. Perhaps ask him to set up an appointment with a teacher at school who can advise him on Uni courses, his form tutor/HoY would know who to recommend.

Good luck to him (and you!). Starting AS year is stressful and trying to make this kind of decision is more stress on top.

My experiences tally with FaintlyMacabre - there is a definite light bulb moment with the stuff early on in the A level maths syllabus. I did maths (with mechanics) and physics and I think if I'd dropped maths I would have had to drop physics too tbh.

I would say if he can get some extra support to get him through the first few months then make a decision. I think now is too early to decide.

Bah, didn't see CMOT's post about sound engineers - this is why it's so important you talk to the ones who know summat about Uni courses!

By chance I came across these two O level maths from the fifties. THe second is the harder. How do they compare with GCSE? (I don't have a clue because my children are younger.)

www.burtongrammar.co.uk/?cat=114

in my day [gimmer emoticon] we had to do additional maths to even think about a level maths as gcse wasn't even the same subject (in my maths teachers opinion). he will need tutoring to bring him up the standard required

What is the degree course he wants to do?

I did maths A level against the advice of my teachers and parents and did very well (so ner to them). I had a bit of extra tutoring initially as I had moved schools for 6th form and everyone else had done GCSE + additional maths so I was a bit behind, but I caught up.

Is your DS the sort try even harder to prove his teacher wrong? I was an all-rounder like your DS, and not a "natural" mathematician, but I was pretty confident I could do it.

Don't let the school ruin his dream career!

DS2 took A2 Maths last year. He got a B at GCSE (though only one mark off an A) and has managed to get through the AS/A2 fine, ending up with a high C. He had very supportive teachers, who have said he was capable of doing even more Maths (not a degree, but courses such as Additional Maths). I'm shocked your DS has been "written off" so soon - it is a steep learning curve from GCSE to AS and from AS to A2 and a lot of work is necessary.

I was talking to the head of maths at dc's school recently. He reckons an A at maths at GCSE is sufficient to do maths A level and that someone with a B at GCSE who is well motivated and prepared to work hard should be able to cope too. For further maths A level he says an A at GCSE is essential. I think as others do that you should find out what specific areas your ds is struggling with & work to support him in it and see how the AS goes, but he will need to realise that he will have to make a big effort with the subject to succeed at it.

I don't think maths is as important to support Physics A level as it used to be. The Physics syllabus ('Advancing Physics') that they use at dc's school has had the hard maths taken out alledgedlyand I'm told that the mathematical requirements for other syllabuses have also been reduced .

Not a teacher and in fact am crap at maths myself.
DS has just started doing his A levels and as well as 3 other subjects is doing Maths and Further Maths. He was one of the top of his class in Maths and sat his GCSE early getting an A.
He is doing ok in Further Maths but admitted a few days ago he is finding Maths the hardest of all his subjects and indeed it seems many of his peers are finding it much harder.
However, it is clearly far to early to consider (IMHO) dropping it now, it may just take a little while to adjust to the different work they are covering.

BTW, teachers don't always know. DS wanted to do a second foreign language having sat French at aged 13 and they said initially he couldn't do it then after he was teaching himself for a year predicted him an F. He got a C which was not bad in the circumstances.

I think the school should be giving a little bit more encouragement and think you should speak to the Head of Department

DD got A* GCSE Maths and really struggled to get her A at A level. In fact, she only got a C grade on the final paper but luckily had enough overall marks to just scrape the A.

(She did Maths, History, Eng Lit, French & German at AS).

I did A Level Maths, and it was the hardest thing I ever did. The maths was like no maths I have EVER come acrss before.

The ONLY way I managed was by memorising the 'methods' of answering questions, and doing so many past papers that it was automatic in the exam. I didn't have a clue what I was doing, I was like a robot, programmed to answer the questions with zero understanding. SOMEHOW I got an A. I still don't know how, because I didn't have a CLUE what I was doing. But I am quite good at memorising stuff, and there are only so many questions they can ask!

I think 5 weeks is a short time to judge how someone is going to do, but maybe best to keep an open mind for a bit, and persuade the school to also?

grownupbabes my friends DD has just had the same experience - she was taken aside and asked was she sure she wanted to carry on with A level maths because she wasn't up to it. I was quite shocked that the teachers had made such a quick judgement and that it was such a damaging comment (her DD lacks a bit of confidence in her Maths ability anyway). My friend hasn't got to the bottom of it yet but it seems to have been an across the board warning for lots of them (a potential medic was advised to drop chemistry) by a school with its eye on the league tables.

DD2 has taken Maths and Further Maths (different school) - there are only a small number of them in the further maths class (a few bailed out after a couple of lessons) but there are a lot of people taking Maths because it is a useful subject that supports other A levels. The ability range seems to be quite wide even though they all have B or above at GCSE. Not everyone will get an A but does that matter.

Perhaps your son just needs a bit more time to make the step up to A level especially as the gap between GCSE and A level can be quite a wide one.

It is a huge step up. My DS got a B at GCSE and realised at the first lesson that he wasn't going to cope and changed. A friend's son is managing but he is having extra coaching in school.

I don't teach Maths, but I do teach Physics, and it's very different starting A level. I have a student who got an A last year who will probably fall by the wayside this half term, by mutual agreement.

Longer term, if he wants to do a degree with a high maths content, he really does need to be secure with the maths at A level. Was it engineering? DH is a mechanical engineer, and his degree involved a lot of maths...

If he is going down the acoustic engineering/theoretical route then he will need maths I am sure, as the degree course will involve a lot of calculation, modelling etc. To have never seen a differential equation would be hopeless. But doing an A level is not just about the exam result - it's about having learnt all that mathematical theory which supports the degree. It might be a case of scraping through the exam, but having the benefit of the teaching. Sounds as if your battle is with the school.

On the other hand my DH is a sound engineer (a good one) and works with others of all qualifications and none - I will ask him his opinion. He never went to university himself though! Not getting maths A level might prevent your DS getting on the degree course but it definitely needn't stop him being a sound engineer by a different route. It's a much more egalitarian (is that the word) industry than my own "traditional" engineering profession.

I have just looked on the UCAS page for "sound" courses. I'm not being funny but most of the courses seemed to have fairly modest entry requirements and I'd anticipate being quite practical. Who is advising him? Would you like some contacts in the industry to talk it through?

Blithe - that is really interesting re your DH and I would very much value his advice. But if you look at the leading sound engineering courses eg Tonnmeister at Surrey, it is definitely maths they're after. Otherwise, there is e.g. Music+Physics at Imperial, once again Maths, Physics with the music component at the Royal College of Music, all with AAA; likewise York, maths music physics - it seems to be the standard requirement.
The feedback I'm getting here and elsewhere seems to be that it is just a step change between GCSE and A level.
My other concern is that his school does NOT DO modules. In fact, they don't even do AS AT ALL. In their wisdom they have decided AS is a waste of time and that all students have to pick their Alevels after GCSE and then go on a straight 2 yr programme with no exams, and just do their A levels at the end. The idea - so they say - is that the ASs and modules are a pointless distraction and that universities don't care. Any views on this?? Surely it would be advantageous to break it down into chunks? I am worried that to apply to University with no ASs will be a drawback anyway. Very confused about this aspect on top of everything else.

You are welcome to CAT me if you want to email off board.

Those are very high level courses and yes they would be mathematical. I did a postgrad degree at Imperial and get brain-ache just remembering it.

Is he getting lots of practical experience too - he's not too young to get stuck in with school productions, church, bands, festivals.

what syllabus is he doing grownupbabes? I've not heard of any that don't have AS as an intermediate step - are they international A levels?

I would think they would be harder than the usual sort though, and also no opportunity to drop your weakest one after a year.

Firstly, it's a bit early to tell, but GCSE to A level is a massive jump.

You need to talk to him first - does he see it as a massive problem? Is it lack of work/effort or does he see himself as having hit a ceiling in terms of his potential?

Then you should both discuss with his maths teacher. If he needs a C at A-Level to pursue the course he wants, & he's capable of getting a C, then he should certainly not be being encouraged to drop it as a subject.

OTOH, dh is a musician & works with a range of sound engineers - new album currently being engineered by someone rather well thought of, & I do know that he's entirely self-taught.

So I'd say there are two issues to focus on: Can he recover the situation with maths A-Level? & if not, what alternative & not necessarily inferior pathways are there which don't insist on A Level Maths?

snorkie - it's Edexcel. I think they "do" the AS work, but they are made to take all the exams at the end, so there is no intermediate exam. The idea is that they don't "waste time" doing revision in summer term but can just keep powering ahead with the syllabus. The school is in this country (England).
blithe - I know these are high level courses, but until now, he has always been considered a high calibre student. It didn't seem unrealistic.
I've got a contact email for Head of Maths now so I'm going to get some direct feedback,which should help. My feeling is still that he should be able to jump the hurdle, with a bit of help, and that it is worth attempting it.
Just for a bit more background - at age 16 he has a pilot licence (courtesy RAF cadets), which involved aeronautics and navigation - both pretty maths-heavy subjects; and his language A level is Japanese, which is a brain twister as well, especially as they do it from zero to A level in 2 years. This is why I just keep thinking surely he must be bright enough to manage this maths if he really wants to (which he does).
blithe - thanks I will CAT you for more advice. Very kind!