Tutoring for selective school- how do you know if it's right for your child?

[cluttered]

DS1 is in Year 4 and September birthday so one of the oldest in class. We have just started having him tutored weekly with a view to passing the exam for a selective school, the exam will be in about 16 months. I am just wondering if we are doing the right thing though or are we pushing him too hard? His primary school doesn't set much homework so having to do homework in between tutor lessons is a shock and he does complain about it.

If he were really upset about it we would stop the lessons and he says he does want to try for this school when pressed but I was just wondering how other parents using tutors have found their children have reacted. Obviously I wouldn't expect him to be eager to do the homework but how much complaining is normal and how much indicates that we're making him unhappy? Part of me thinks he should be enjoying the freedom of the last years of primary school and the other part thinks it will be good practice for secondary when he will have to do homework anyhow.

If he were struggling academically he might see the benefit more but because he is already doing well he complains that he is the only one in his class having to do extra work. He does coerce me into buying him sweets, comics etc that I wouldn't normally because of the extra lessons and homework but if I asked him to do the lessons for no extra treats I don't think he would be too happy. At this age should he be able to understand deferred gratification and should he want to do it completely of his own volition or is a little persuasion acceptable?

Quattro, that is factually incorrect.

The maths papers in particular test topics that most primary schools will not have covered until Y6, if at all (simple algebraic expressions comes to mind).

The English exams (if they are non MCQ) test will need a style of essay-writing and exam technique that again is not taught in most primary schools to anything like the same standard. The comprehension questions may also be more sophisticated.

This is particularly the case in London where the 11+ is a huge bunfight and not a pass/fail test.

It's great that your dd passed without any tutoring, but I thought she had been at a private prep school in any case? You simply cannot compare the kind of curriculum a child in even a nonselective prep school will get with the daily fare of a standard primary school.

Which is not to say that I think tutoring is a great idea, and certainly not if it involves cramming a child whose natural ability is not at the right level. And I think Y4 is probably a bit early to start. But taking a year to make sure that your child is up to speed with maths and English content and technique is not at all unreasonable, whether you do it yourself or pay someone else.

The level of obsessiveness over VR and NVR that you find on the 11+ website is barking though -- a few familiarisation sessions with different question and paper formats should be all that's needed. Maths and English is a whole 'nother ballgame, and do need a bit of extra input ime.

Thanks frogs, might I ask if you live in London?

How DO you tell if your child is at the right level of natural ability though, is being top of the class and on G&T register in a very mixed ability primary school sufficient? He is bright but not "gifted" in the true sense (My sister is/was gifted and was working two years ahead at primary school, got the top marks nationally in the equivalent of GSCE and A levels in the country I come from, DS1 is bright but not to that extent).

His teacher suggested that we consider it intially at the first parent-teacher meeting of the year but then seemed to backtrack a bit when I asked him subsequently for more information and I'm not sure if that was because his opinion of DS1 changed or he felt that he shouldn't have suggested it?

It is difficult to know if your child is the natural ability to fit in at a grammar (esp a super-selective) before they start but I think you know whether your child is bright or not. From what you say about your son he sounds a lot like dd was at primary - in the top few in a large mixed ability state junior school. She is now in Y7 of a highly selective grammar and fits in very well. Whilst I would say she is bright, she is certainly not genius level . Go with your gut instinct. I seem to remember reading somewhere that what they were looking for were the top 2/3 from each primary in terms of academic ability.

We started tutoring dd in Y4 and I will not start that early with ds. It wasn't a struggle to get her to work as she likes working but even still she was fed up of it by the time the exam came round. Ds will have a year of tutoring prior to the exam and that will be that.

You do need to see past papers as they are all different depending on where you are applying. For dd's school the English paper is notoriously difficult. It is only comprehension (no creative writing - which she would have loved as that is her strong point!) but the texts are usually from 19th century classics - Tess of the D'Ubervilles and Mill on the Floss being used previously.

Sorry to the OP, and thanks to Frogs. I hadn't understood that some schools include a test on stuff that has been learned (or not, as the case may be). Which truly makes it a barking system, no?

And yes, DD is at an independent prep school - a selective prep school - but the 11+ exam was not something she prepared for at school. Mind you I wonder if we are still talking about the same sort of issue because I distinctly remember having to teach DD to do simultaneous equations. Not properly with that long formula thingy but, you know, the logic of swapping sides of the equation. It took all of 15 minutes. It was pretty well the only thing I had to teach her. Total time investment by the parent-tutor (ho-ho) was 10 hours - 8 hours for the practice papers and 2 hours to cover the stuff DD got wrong. She's not even going to the blessed school now (long story).

Must come to cluttered's support here! Our dd did Latymer tests last year and I can assure everyone you definitely need to have covered Yr 6 maths work by the October of Yr 6. It's not just reasoning tests but maths as well. You definitely need some tutor support to give a bright child a reasonable chance. This certainly does not mean they will struggle when/if they get there. These N London grammars are incredibly competitive and many of the kids trying are coming from preps and high-achieving state primaries. Past papers are available from the school at their open day in September. Your tutor should have copies of these in any case if they are preparing a child for Latymer.

However, I would be wary of two sessions per week in Year 4. It's a very long slog if you start this early and I'm not convinced you would necessarily gain that much by such a long preparation, particularly if you're already having to 'bribe' ds at this early stage. One session a week from Year 5 would be fine IMO. CAT me if you'd like more info.

We've been through Latymer entrance twice now - once successfully, once not.

yy, including stuff they won't have covered is barking, but there you go.

Cluttered, I don't think there's an exact cut-off point above or below which you should/shouldn't apply to selective schools. Bearing in mind there are 10 applicants for each place, there will be loads of kids who don't get in who could actually have coped perfectly well in one of those schools. We're in London too, but probably not trying for Latymer as it's a bit too far away. My older dc did 11+ a few years ago (successfully).

Ask yourself: is the child coping easily with the primary school curriculum? Do you get the feeling that he/she is coasting a bit and could easily crank it up a notch or two? Go and look at the selective school, see what you think and what the child thinks. Explain the concept to the child and see what reaction youget. How sensitive is the child to competition and failure? It also depends what your other school options are -- it's easier to be laid back if you have a reasonable comprehensive nearby or can afford to pay for private non-selective.

The decision needs to factor in all of these -- ie. if the child is clearly outstandingly able then it might make sense to talk the selective system up a bit, and help them to get over the sensitivity. Ditto an averagely bright but lazy and robust child. I'd be a bit more wary about pushing a child who was only averagely bright and not hugely confident into the whole selection process. What is really not a good idea is cramming a child of average ability until the pips squeak so try and get them into a school where they will be in the bottom 15% of the ability range. Not a good place to spend 5 years.

If you think he can cope with a bit of extra work and with the potential disappointment of not getting in, then you have nothing to lose by trying, as long as you don't make a big deal of it. I don't think giving loads of extra work in Y4 is a good idea, but a little bit extra might not hurt (though you don't really need to pay someone to do it). It depends whether the tutor is teaching in a way that will help the child progress in all areas of schoolwork, or whether it is designed as an exam-cramming factory. The former is fine, the latter not great imo.

Thanks frogs. DS1 is clearly above average, has been predicted all level 5s at KS2 STS with 99% likelihood and is getting some Year 5 work already at school and is finding it all easy. I think he thinks he is brighter than he is though because he always finishes his work first but it is an inner city school and quite a lot of the kids are struggling academically.

The tutor is focusing on improving his handwriting and spelling which need some attention and checking his basic knowledge of maths so all good stuff. I am hoping that if he doesn't get in we can approach the academy that would be our second choice and get him a place based on his performance in the Latymer entrance tests. We wouldn't get offered a place at this academy as their admission criteria give you low priority if you are close to another co-ed non-denominational school and a new academy is opening this September just up the road. However, I don't really like its location or speciality but have heard that the first academy keeps some places back to offer to academically able children

Cluttered, would you consider the independent sector? There are still some good bursaries available (means tested) and I know of one child who lives not far from Hackney who got into Latymer and was subsequently offered the opportunity to try for bursary at an independent school. He now goes there and is very happy.

2009, I think DP may be opposed to independent schooling (although OK with selective strangely). I went to an independent secondary and got a good education but did feel dissatisfied with our family's standard of living compared to that of my classmates, although my parents could afford to pay so we obviously weren't that badly off! Living in innercity London I think DS feels quite well off since we have a house plus garden and some of his friends live in flats. So wouldn't want him to go anywhere where he was amongst mainly very well-off children, a range would be fine though. Not sure if we would qualify for means-tested bursary or not, theoretically if we were less rubbish with money we could probably just about afford it as we bought our house when prices were low so mortgage quite reasonable. We don't qualify for any family tax credit whatsoever which apparently makes us in the top 10% of household incomes though it doesn't feel like it!