Would you be upset if your 13/14 year old dc were doing a project about knife crime?

[itchyandscratchy]

I've got to teach a unit in English about an issue the stduents can campaign about - the ones already taught are a bit imho so I was looking for something more engaging.

Do you think I'm opening a can of worms if we look into knife crime amongst teenagers: causes, media coverage, hype vs reality, existing campaigns against it, etc. ?

I'm a youth worker and think it?s great that teachers are engaging with young people about knife crime, we live in a quite 'isolated/rural' area where knife crime LUCKLY hasn't arrived yet. But being nearer to Manchester we do like to bring it up, just to make our young people aware of how lucky we are to live in the area we do!

Young people do need to understand what the real world can have in store for them, giving young people the information to make informed choices is more and more relevant in a peer society where the pressure may force them into things they think might be OK and not realise the full implications their actions can have - for example carrying a knife, and getting caught with it.

So for me as a parent of younger children and youth worker I personally think it's great that teachers are looking at the relevant issues surrounding knife crime - Well done!

But it's an English lesson in persuasive writing - if a pupil wrote the case for carrying knives (deterence, protective, power.. etc) and it was well written would the pupil get top marks?

Besides the number of children carrying knives is tiny.

...and I teach in a 'nice', largely middle-class semi-rural secondary school where two of my Y11 students were permanently excluded a few months ago for bringing in a knife and flashing it about at school: incredibly stupid behaviour from two actually very vulnerable youths who thought they would gain some kudos from their actions. They've both in taught in behavioural units within the Authority since their exclusion and have been allowed to take their exams under supervision, so hopefully they haven't completely screwed their chances up of gaining some qualifications. But both students are also known to have been volatile in the past and it wouldn't have taken much of a leap of imagination to give the scenario a much unhappier ending.

zanzibarmum - your argument about the subject matter doesn't really hold up brillianly well, as the topic will:
a)cover all the academic requirements of the curriculum (and yes they will be exploring counter-arguments in their creation of the radio programme discussion so that they explore both sides)
b)hopefully bring up a subject that students feel they can engage with and therefore contribute to constructively (perhaps even allaying some fears about the possibility of knife crime affceting them directly, given the still small numbers of incidents)

therefore killing two birds with one stone: their awareness has been heightened, they've explored the subject matter thoroughly and they've also attained their target levels for persuasive writing, analysis and group discussion, all of which are on the KS3 and KS4 curricula. Who knows, we might even encourage correct use of apostrophes in their written work as well, as the marking criteria asks us to do.

Why on earth wouldn't they use Knife crime as a topic in Private school? of course they would. It's topical and all over the media. Students can research it and find information from youth groups, charities, blogs etc.

Relevance has to be part of the curriculum and it has to be based on student need! History is extremely relevant and most schools have at least one if not two GCSE groups studying it. Chemistry hugely relevant and again most schools teach it within triple award to All students!

Latin, am not sure of its relevant unless a highly academic student wanting to get into a highly academic Uni wants to do it, for the highly illterate, dyslexic and disadvantaged pupils that make up 25% of most comprehensives it would be ridiculous to teach latin!

No. I think it's a very good topic for that age group.

Itchy - good on you for teaching the apostrophe and no doubt irregular plural of knife. I still think get the chilfren to research the misuse of the apostrophe in local shops etc might actually be fun and educational though not I agree youth or social work.

Choseone - you make my broader point for me. Why shouldn't 'disadvantaged' kids have the opportunity to learn Latin. I don't buy the line promoted by some right wing educationalists (eg The Bell Curve) that socially disadvantaged children are not capable of demanding subjects. On contrary, good teaching can achieve good educational outcomes in all children.

My general concern is that the agendae of the unreconstructed right and the 'let the schools address every social ill' liberal left have become joined. Both seem to be saying pupils should only be taught functional skills - and learn to understand or cope with their environment(knife crime) rather than be given the educational tools to challenge the conditions which give rise to it.

Itchy, sounds like you teach in the sort of school my 13 year old attends. There's a gap between her reality and that of kids living in an inner-city. I'd regard any lesson like that as helping bridge the gap. Uni is too late to find out that life isn't all Enid Blyton!

I believe that teaching children how to argue an opinion, how to discuss and debate opposing views and how to construct your personal opinion into a coherent piece of persuasive writing is clearly giving them tools to challenge conditions in society. I do not see how you can argue otherwise, zanzi.

Just because the issue here is knife crime doesn't mean that the tools learned are any less sharp than if the issue were Should Turkey be Allowed to Join teh EU.

DS (14, Yr 9) has cerebral palsy and attends a school for children with physical disabilities.
Despite the fact that very few can actually pick up and hold a knife (, they still cover these and other subjects.
They have recently covered teenage pregnancy, most enlightening.
Yesterday as part of their English they watched a film about slaughterhouses, which DS found most disturbing. I believe the plan is something to do with a debate to be held in a few weeks.
All teenagers should cover subjects such as this.

I don't want identify where I work but it's a very successful, over subscribed academic school; Latin, Chemistry are certainly taught and there is small yr 9 unit on knife crime connected to that year group's Creative Arts GCSE. I don't see the existence of these in the curriculum as being mutually exclusive, but part of the greater whole.

zanzibarmum - what makes you think that apostrophe-spotting isn't taught as part of ALL the stuff that is covered in English lessons up and down the country? I've taught it loads of times and I know full well that many many English teachers do the same as well as much more. Where do you get your ideas about state school English lessons, apart from snapshots that you've picked up on the odd forum?

Do you go into any state schools at all? (not a rhetorical question) In my recent experience, getting more involved in teacher training, it amazes me how few initial applicants have actually spent any time in schools apart from the however-many-years it's been since they were there themselves. Many of them are genuinely surprised that the young people there are just as we would want our own dcs to be and that the teachers there are there because they enjoy working with young people and they love their jobs. I know not every school can be like this; but there are good things happening in most schools. I've worked in a rural school, a big inner city school and the one I'm in now. All very different catchments, all with different needs and different results. All really great.

I would challenge anyone who gets their info about state schools from Waterloo Road / the daily mail / TV news / anywhere apart from inside the classrooms to get themselves the chance to observe some lessons in a school for the day.

Itchy - your reaction to responses to a question your raised amaze me. Ad hominem attacks should not be part of persuasive writing.

Nor should accusing me of something I haven't said be part of persuasive writing - you generalise my concern at you knife project in an English class with the suggestion that I am attacking state schools. No I am suggesting that our expectations in the state sector should be enhanced - why not Latin for "disadvantaged" children Chooseone? Fewer than half state schools offer 3 sciences and a growing number are even moving away from double science.

For the record, I get my information from schools (former GB of two state schools), children's state schools; teachers, outcomes, universities etc. I don't read the Daily Mail.

.. and I take it your children are also in the state sector?

Itchy - here's an idea for your English unit on knife crime. Why not focus the work around Shakespeare's Macbeth - all the arguments for and against the use of knives are there. Would that work in your school?

Stewiegriffinssmom - if your students find Shakespeare boring I think that may say more about your teaching skills than either the pupils or the Bard.

My fearful suspicion is that some teachers find it easier to download a lesson plan on "ishooooos" such as knife crime, than make the effort to bring out the glory of Shakespeare for their pupils.

My understanding of the educational literature is that good quality teacher makes all the difference - not class size, not shiny new buildings, etc; perhaps the teachers on this site should rediscover some of their pride in their craft and give to the pupils in the state sector what is their right

I'm halfway between finding your attitude and poor knowledge of most secondary schools amusing and really annoying now, zanzibarmum.

At the 3 secondary schools I have taught in (covering a very wide range of size and catchments) Shakespeare was covered in all years at KS4 as well as at GCSE, taught as a separate unit of work and approached in an accessible and enjoyable way. but then again, I'm guessing that unless we're making the students rote learn Shakespearean speeches and write lengthy theses, it won't be good enough.

As I tried to explain previously, the 'ishoo' of knife crime is to act as a vehicle for students to exercise their skills in persuasive writing, speaking and analytical reading. and it's going very well so far as we're 2 weeks in now. They've just recorded their radio programmes.

anyway, i only popped in briefly. i've been trying to wean myself off MN a bit. It's mostly worked. Must try harder...

oh, and fyi, I don't download lessons (not that that's necessarily a bad thing in the rgith circumstances) - I write my own lessons and try to build and adapt them around the needs of my students.

Itchy - sorry I touched a raw nerve. But hey my remarks were a response to stewiegriffinsmom who also seems to be a teacher and who thinks her pupils are bored of Shakespeare. Still I am not clear why in an English lesson you might not want to draw on say Macbeth to illustrate some of the themes around knife crime... out damned spot and all that.

In this very thread and in many others teachers post requests for help with planning a lesson, websites to download stuff etc - I actually think teaching is an honorable profession but I sense that many of the teachers here on teachernet are looking for an easy way out. It is right that all professions are subject to scrutiny and teachers shouldn't be exempt from that do you think?

ok.

I might mention Macbeth depending on what class it was. His speech debating the pros and cons would be an interesting one in some contexts. But the Macbeth reference seems a bit tenuous seeing as that particular knife crime was pre-meditated by two grown adults who were murdering for their own gain.

The knife crime we've been looking at as depicted in the news recently involves the gang mentality, the disaffected youths that misguidedly think that a blade gives them some respect and the blase attitudes some youths have which can result in an equally young life being needlessly taken. We've talked much more about the Ben Kinsella case tbh, and it has engaged the students successfully because they relate to Ben and his family so much. He was 'one of them'. That makes it easier for them to write and speak persuasively.

I don't think teachers are above criticism at all; individual cases have to be judged accordingly, and teachers are just as afllible as the next person. It just rankles a bit when broad generalisations are made that bear no relevance to my own experience in schools and teaching for the last 15 years and are made by people who don't really know what it's really like day-in, day-out (imho it's a fantastic job, btw). But, yes, you're entitled to an opinion, of course. If it's misguided or wrong or unfair though, I'm at liberty to point it out.

fallible

Itchy - I'd be interested to hear how your lesson goes, with or without Macbeth.

Talking of English teaching have you seen today's OFSTED report on the teaching of the subject in secondary schools?

It seems to be critical of the quality of teaching of English particularly among white working class boys.

haven't seen it - have you got a link?

I was thinking actually - Romeo & Juliet would be a much more appropriate link, thinking about Mercutio's and Tybalt's deaths. But again, I would be much more likely to do it the other way round, i.e. whilst actually studying R&J I bring in the idea that the themes in the text are wholly relevant to teenager nowadays: love, family feuds, respect, gangs, etc., rather than introduce the play to students who haven't yet studied it. My current group haven't done either play yet: they've done Midsummer ND and 12th Night.

The knife crime unit's been going really well. They're not a particuarly able group and plenty of behavioural problems but they've done really well so far. I've only been teaching them for 4 weeks and it's enabled me to get to know them well and note that they're very good at drama and oral work, and weaker with written work, which gives me something to go as far as setting them targets and keeping them motivated. Interestingly, big number of white boys in group: some working class, some lower middle class I'd say. Will have to read that Ofsted thingy.

Zanzi, interestingly your text suggestion is exactly the play the knife unit is linked with, which then bridges to the GCSE anthology poems --My Last Duchesse, Laboratory, Hitcher and Education For Leisure.