How can I tell if my local secondary school is OK or not?

[AllotmentMum]

I live in an area with very little choice of secondary school. Predictably dd1 was not allocated a place at the good grammar school out of area, and is now in Yr7 at the local comp. It has 30% A-C GCSE pass rate and a bad local reputation, but all the local kids go there as the only way out is to suddenly become a catholic. DD is happy there, but mainly because she is with all her mates from primary school, she has an easy time with not much homework, and she finishes at 2.30pm, half hour before the primary school. Her progress reports are good, but I can't help thinking that this is because the school's baseline standards are low. How can I tell if dd is actually doing as best she can and keeping up with national standards? I am told that for the bright kids who are willing to behave the school can deliver reasonable results, but how can I assess this? Should I apply again for the grammar and move dd against her wishes? Or just resign myself to whatever academic standards the school delivers? Should I be content that she is happy, even though I feel her whole future career is at risk. Am I too focussed on her future career (but we all have to earn a living, and I can't help thinking that dd won't thank me in the future if her career options are limited). I also have ds and dd2 a few years behind - if I can get dd1 into the grammar then their places will be (almost) guarantteed. I went to an academic school and hated it with a vengence, so why do I even want something similar for my kids? What do I do for the best? Help! I'm so mixed up!

Phew!

Perhaps one way to deal with this is to think, carefully, about realistic expectations for your dd. Do you think she will want/should want to go on to university after 'A' levels? Which university? Russell Group? Oxbridge? Other? Studying what? Or would she want to take another course in life? Is she into music? Performing arts?

Then see if you can book a chat with someone senior at the school and check out their leavers' destinations. Get actual statistical breakdowns. Our local comp. hands out printed sheets with leavers' destinations listed, they hand that out on their secondary transfer open evening. So the school should be able to help you with that.

As you have heard, the statistics aren't going to tell you much about what your dd might/might not be able to achieve at this school, so it's good to see what others have achieved - the individual stories behind the statistics.

The other thing to think about is what you intend to do/can do if the news is not good. That is, if you think the school, realistically cannot deliver what you (are guessing) your dd wants to achieve.

That you will have to think about some more.

On the plus side - she's happy; it could be worse.

Good luck.

Where is she on the National Curriculum levels "scale"?

I work at 'the local comp' and my son is in yr7 at the comp in the next town.

There is a huge difference between them - reflected in academic results, Ofsted reports, etc.

Day-to-day things that you notice are the quality of marking of work, feedback on homework, meaningful homework set regularly, attitude to uniform, attitudes to discipline and behaviour, etc.

ds1's school also set far more challenging targets than the school I work at.

If you were to post her KS2 SATs results, her current levels and her yr9 targets, plenty of people on here would give you some feedback on whether or not she is being stretched.

for inf. ds1 got 5a for all 3 at KS2, has targets of mostly 7s and 8s for end of yr9, and is on target or above target for these.

Thank you so much for your responses - it really helps to have some down to earth views.

Her end of Yr 3 Sats were all 5s (the sheet doesn't say 5 what). Her progress report for March says Maths 5b, Science 5b and English 4a - so she seems to be going backwards on that one, even though its always been her best subject! Targets for end of KS3 are Maths 7C, Science 6b and English 6b. These don't seem challenging from what Roisin says. Homework is set regularly, but there doesn't seem to be any feedback, and there has not been any parents evening yet this year (I emailed about this and was told that it is at the end of June - seems a bit late in the year to be much good to me. What do you think?)

Roisin - just how did you manage to get your son into a school in the next town? tried, but failed.

The intake for the school is very mixed, and there is a sink estate nearby which feeds some very troubled and disruptive kids into the school (one stabbing and one near death experience with a bottle of vodka on a cold night in the park reported so far this year. The worst thing about that is that the kids friends left their unconscious mate rather than do something, and he would have died if it weren't for an early morning dog walker).

However, there are also some nice kids, but I worry about the lowest common denominator winning out, and teachers expectations being too low.

Cherryblossom, I have tried to get detailed information from the school both about leavers destinations and more information about the exam results. My husband thinks that as long as our dd is in the 30% that gets 5GCSEs what everyone else gets is immaterial. So I tried to get a breakdown of that 30%, i.e. did they all come away with 8 GCSES at good grades. So far I have not managed to get any data from them at all, and they seem to resent my asking.

The school is becoming an academy from Sept, as one of the named and shamed failing schools. The promised new building will help a lot, new uniforms are being proposed, and I assume there will be a shake up of discipline and curriculum. But the kids and teachers will still be the same.

As to expectations, at just 12 I'm not sure how many of her hopes are really mine that I have put into her mouth. She says that she would like to be an architect, but this will probably change over time. I would just like her to have the chance to go to University, I don't really care which one or what she studies. All I want is for doors to stay open for her, and not to limit her opportunities. I have no ambitions for her to be some super high flying international business woman, just to have an interesting career that she enjoys which brings in enough income to have a home of her own and be free of money worries. It may be tough at the top, but I think its a lot worse at the bottom . . .

I have taught in a school like the one you describe. Some children like your dd do really well there because they get so much attention as there will be so few children like them. However some get dragged down and although I am a send them to the local school kind of person no parent wants to see ther child's potential dragged down.

Children do often stay ata similar level from the end of ks2 to the end of year 7 as they are primed for the tests. The English result would bother me though.

I teach in a very good school now and we have not had our year 7 parents evening yet although I think there has been one with form tutors earlier in the year.

I think the jury is still out on academies tbh, do you know who is behind the academy?

Hmmm.

All your reasoning sounds spot on. It may well improve with academy status. There's an enormous amount to be said for a local school, especially one where she's happy. Trouble happens at nearly all schools, and she seems to be avoiding it, again, much to be said for that. She may well be one of those for whom that statistic of "30% getting 5 GCSEs of grade C and higher" actually means 8 GCEs at A, or whatever.

The thing I would be worried by is that the school is not being transparent with you. You have no idea whether that statistic means 30% scraping 5 GCSEs at C, with masses of parental support, and no-one getting 8 GCSEs at A, or what. Because the school's not telling you. I think that lack of openness is a bit of a concern. Happy schools have a tendency to be quite open.

I think Twinset has said much of what I would say; the English mark would worry me, the coming academy status may be good or just more of the same, depending of what sort of management takes over.

What are their stats. on 'A' levels? Would you want her to transfer somewhere else for 'A' levels? Will she meet the entry requirements for transfer at 'A' level?

My advice would be to start looking into yr 7/8 admission at other schools, including those in the neighbouring town. You only have to look. Sometimes just looking (again) at other schools really helps define how you feel about the current school. Year 7/8 admission is sometimes a great deal easier than secondary transfer, just because very few other people are doing it and vacancies do arise. Go talk to other heads and see if you can book a few visits. Yes, you've done it once before, but you might get some unexpected insights this time.

If nothing else, doing that gives you a sense of doing something. It will also bring the present situation into focus. That will lead to a clearer idea of a plan of action.

My DS went to a school with results like these. He was the sort of child who couldn't care less about fitting in (unlike his sister) and was in top sets all the way through. He left with decent GCSE results (I think he only did 8 but they were all As and Bs) and went on to the grammar school for 6th form.

He enjoyed his time at the school because all his friends were there and he was on the G&T register because it is the top so many % of the cohort. He got extra things because of being at a "poor" school that his brothers didn't get at the grammar.

But had DD1 gone there she would have been in the 70% who didn't get the GCSEs because for her fitting-in was the most important aspect. So I would have fought tooth and nail not to send her there. It really does depend on the child.

I'm amazed at the school not giving you a breakdown of the GCSE results. I thought all schools had to produce a table showing the number of children achieving each grade in each subject.

I think they are supposed to progress 2 sub levels a year - so her targets based on her year 6 SATS seem a bit unchallenging to me! I don't think standing still for a while in year 7 is a problem-there's a lot of stuff to take in - but I would be worried about going backwards. Could you make an appointment to see her head of year?

as a quick aside - there is a whole world of difference and very little corrolation between ks2 levels in English and ks3 levels, if thats any consolation (yes, stupid isn't it? ).

a conservative level in Y7 (ie lower than her ks2 level) is quite usual, ime, bu I would be looking to see that she moves into the level 5s by the end of Y7, beginning of Y8 as she seems to be above average in her ks2 results. The national average level in English at the end of ks3 is a level 5, so she is still being predicted as attaining an above average target.

Also bear in mind her predicted levels as opposed to her target levels - it;s easy to get these mixed up.

Predicted is what she should achieve given her existing ability if she carries on attaining at the same rate.

The target level should set an aspirational level for her to try to achieve if she is to be stretched to her full potential.

I am a secondary school teacher and I would always advise a working day visit. Arrange to walk around the school whilst lessons are in progress. See for yourself the sort of atmosphere there is about the school, is there a calm learning environment or not.

The school gets 30% results: you just have to make sure that your DD is one of the 30%, not one of the 70%. You said that you wanted to send her to school in another town, which presumably would incur travelling costs, so I assume that (a) you have some spare money and (b) you are prepared to spend it on your DD. Put aside now whatever you would have spent on buses and use it for tutoring at GCSE time. Help her to get the required grades and, as elvis said, you can escape to somewhere better for sixthform.

I think the single most influential factor in determining a child's quality of education is the peer group.

So what are her friends like? Is she mixing with nice sensible children or in with a poor crowd? Providing she's with the former she should be okay. I like the advice about additional tutoring if possible.

what do other parents say about the school. From the horses mouth is better than any written government bolleaux.

Speak to other families who have been through the school, what was their outcome. Also as quattro says, the peer group is important.