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Secondary education

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Original poster

Dumbed down national exams? What do older people think?

177 replies

Lucia39 · 07/04/2009 16:01

To get an A* pass for GCSE English Literature now requires a mere 56%!

How do those old enough to have taken 'O' levels feel about this?

Is the Government right and are 16-18 year olds getting brighter year on year? Or have the powers-that-be simply dumbed down the GCSEs and 'A' levels thereby allowing candidates who would have failed 'O' levels (i.e. not gained a grade C) to now believe they are actually competent in their subjects?

OP posts:
hotcrossllama · 08/04/2009 20:12

yes i've agreed with her on various things

maybe i am her and haven't realised it

Shambolic · 08/04/2009 20:19

Maybe the question isn't whether the exams have got easier or harder, but whether they are fit for the sort of work-force that we are trying to turn out?

Exams after all serve the purpose of showing that the qualified person has achieved a certain level/understanding and are used by employers/further learning institutions to select who is best suited.

If it is the case that a modular/resit approach turns out people who are better prepared for the world of work/higher education and life in general then really it doesn't matter whether they are easier/harder/different or what have you.

The question is are they fit for purpose?

I suppose time will tell.

My personal feelings (from my own experience of meeting and working with younger people) are that things are not great. I find it depressing that young people who are on paper highly qualified seem to lack initiative and most of them can't spell. Maybe the spelling thing is a result of computers with automatic spell checkers and would be the case even if people were still sitting O-Levels. I don't know.

As a person with a background in science I also find the whole double/single science certificate thing and that so many schools seem to not offer separate sciences at GCSE any more really worrying and TBH it upsets me...

paolosgirl · 08/04/2009 20:27

Yes, I'd heard something about this science qualification, Shambolic - what has happened? Don't kids sit papers in biology, chemistry and physics anymore?

stillenacht · 08/04/2009 20:27

we have double and triple science in our GS

TheFallenMadonna · 08/04/2009 20:33

All children need to study all three sciences at GCSE, which was not the case in my day. You can do dual award, three subjects - 2 GCSE equivalent, or triple science - three subjects, 3 GCSEs. Both are suitable for moving on to A level, but of course more ground is covered in triple award. This can be done two ways. The recommended way is to take extra time to teach triple Science. This of course has a knock-on effect on how many other subjects can be studied. Or you can do it with no extra time. This is how we do it in my school, and I'm not thrilled by it (it's not my decision though). It is a rush, and IMO unnecessary with current A level specifications. Those are, of course, a whole other bone of contention...

abraid · 08/04/2009 20:35

A close family member was the boffin/swot of her year and got 7 As and 2Bs at O level, and then 3 As at A level. She took these in the early eighties.

She never did less than three hours' a night. At A level she did four hours. Each and every night. And she was bright--Mensa-level IQ.

I very seldom meet anyone in the sixth form who works this hard these days in the subjects my family member took. Which does make me wonder just how hard some of these exams are.

Shambolic · 08/04/2009 20:36

I was talking to my next door neighbour who is at school and just doing her GCSE options - she said that they don't offer separate sciences - they can do a course which is worth one GCSE in "science" or a course worth two GCSEs in "science". I asked her if she could do them separately if she wanted and she said no - and she talked in terms of taking "science" rather than Physics, Chemistry etc.

Not exactly a huge sample I know, but don't think she was making it up and she's way too old to have got the wrong end of the stick!

abraid · 08/04/2009 20:37

'whether they are fit for the sort of work-force that we are trying to turn out?'

There's more to education than preparing people to be employees. Education should stretch and challenge pupils and set them up for intellectual interests in the rest of their lives.

Shambolic · 08/04/2009 20:37

Have read the more recent posts and maybe my neighbour has it wrong?

She seemed pretty sure though.

I will have to collar her and quiz her more closely...

stillenacht · 08/04/2009 20:39

I started a thread about wanting to sit a GCSE which is 100% exam for a laugh with no revision - i honestly think i could get A/A* in a subject i have never formally learnt which i doubt i could do if i sat an old O level paper with no revision (or prior formal knowledge)... i have invigilated many GCSE exams - fancy doing Geography or History as i never sat those.

paolosgirl · 08/04/2009 20:40

Well said, abraid...

Shambolic · 08/04/2009 20:44

abraid I wasn't talking about the purpose of education, which obviously has a massive host of positives beyond just getting a job/getting onto the next rung of education. Learning for the sake of learning and having an enquiring mind are wonderful things.

I was talking about the purpose of formal exams.

abraid · 08/04/2009 20:47

I hope I wasn't too strident... It's just that I feel sad when I think of schools and teachers preparing a future workforce. I'm probably an over-idealist parent but I really want my children to leave school with a love of learning and a desire to keep on learning throughout their lives. I want them to have those inner resources that a truly liberal education can give you. I still remember some of my English and History lessons to this day--how inspiring they were.

Shambolic · 08/04/2009 20:53

abraid I worded my post very carefully as that was exactly what I wasn't trying to say! It's a shame i still didn't manage to make my point well...

I also didn't want to take this into the whole other debate about children being taught to the test from an early age, so damaging their natural enjoyment of learning, and the long term effects of that. But that really is another debate.

For the vast majority of people though, the exams are so that people can prove their competence to get them onto the next stage, be it work or further study or whatever. Of course some people take exams for personal pride and echievement but I think that this is usually something people come to later rather than at school age, when they're something you pretty much have to do.

The other sad thing is that apparently (and again this is another debate) chidren quite often choose their options based on what they think will result in better grades, rather than choosing subjects because they enjoy them.

roomforthree · 08/04/2009 20:54

How funny stillenacht - mocking children and the achievements they are proud of.

When your children get their exam results, will you disparage their efforts by telling them they are worthless because you reckon you could pass with no revision?

stillenacht · 08/04/2009 21:00

no, not funny - tragic if you ask me. As an adult i want to do it for a laugh - obviously for a teenager it is a slightly different kettle of fish and all that.

Of course i will be proud of my son when he gets his results (if they are halfway decent), he can only sit the exam which is in front of him. My other son will never sit a GCSE (unless they find a cure to low functioning autism).I have bright pupils who themselves think the exams are ridiculous and not stretching them, they know the political issues behind the ever rising GCSE pass rates, they are not daft.

VirginiaWoolf · 08/04/2009 21:06

I do feel sorry for students now, it's not their fault that the exams have (IMO) become so devalued.
I did a GCSE at nightschool in the late 90s - I was curious, I suppose. Anyway, it was a bit shambolic, the tutor's contract wasn't renewed for the following year because she didn't teach to the syllabus properly, and I'd failed to work out that I'd actually be writing Year 7, 8, 9 and 10 reports during what should have been the revision period! So, I went in a tad underprepared (hadn't revised, basically) and invented studies/research ........ and got an A.
(This was Psychology, btw - a colleague did Modern History at the same time and found it much more demanding).

Shambolic · 08/04/2009 21:14

On the one hand it must be nice to get strings of A and A* and make you feel very special...

Until you realise all your friends have done that too?

The pressure must be enormous as well, that straight As is achievable and so are expected from I imagine lots of students. At my school only a couple of the most super-clever got straight As (v acaddemic private school).

It's not actually a good thing is it. A should be excellent, outstanding, only for the absolute brightest, how do you differentiate if not? Rely on interviews and other stuff more - so even more pressure?

HortonHatchesTheChocolateEgg · 08/04/2009 21:47

At my v academic private school, I took 12 O Levels (two were a year early) and was delighted (and quite surprised) to get 6 As and 6 Bs. My teachers were also delighted and encouraged me towards trying for Oxbridge. I don't suppose many people who got half As and Bs go to Oxford now. It was almost unheard of to get straight As in those days. And this is a school that was widely touted at the time (still is, actually) as being one of the best in the country. Except now they get nearly 100% As for both GCSE and A Level. It must make results time a bit dull!

TheFallenMadonna · 08/04/2009 21:52

I got all As at O level. I am not incredibly clever (not by a long chalk!) and I went to a bog standard comprehensive. In fact, a comprehensive in a town with 4 single sex grammars (to which my parents were ideologically opposed).

Shambolic · 08/04/2009 21:54

ROFL fallenmadonna would be fab if you now revealed that you only took 2!

TheFallenMadonna · 08/04/2009 21:57

LOL! Not Horton's impressive tally I'm afraid, but I did get 9 .

There is a bit of a myth around the "straight As at O level" thing though I think.

Shambolic · 08/04/2009 22:04

You may be brainier than you think!

I was an early GCSE person rather than O-Level... Was unusual to get straight As in those days I reckon...

What is your myth theory?

bagsforlife · 08/04/2009 22:04

Let's get this in perspective (even from me who thinks exams have been dumbed down) not THAT many students get all A*s at GCSE in 'proper' subjects....credit where credit's due and all that. But some do get 'strings' of As in, ahem, shall we say, less academic subjects.

HortonHatchesTheChocolateEgg · 08/04/2009 22:06

Yes, definitely v impressive to get all As in nine subjects! I think you are probably v v clever and bathing in false modesty! I mean that in a nice way.