PGCE - is it necessary?!

[fishperson]

Have been looking at independent schools recently for DD for yr 7.

Looking down their staff lists I notice that some have no staff with PGCEs and some have just about everyone with a PGCE. Do mumsnetters think a degree, classroom experience and good exam results are enough, or does a PGCE really add something to a teacher's knowledge and ability in the classroom?

In the 1970s and 80s, there was a time when the government grant Qualified Teacher Status to degreed and experienced teachers. The teaches who don't have PGCEs or BEd, DipEd etc, are probably older teachers who qualified before the days of the PGCE.

I think a PGCE (or other teaching qualification) is fairly important.

I wouldn't fret ver one or two- as SQP says they could just be older generation. I would hazard a guess though that an independent with lots may jjust be hiring non-qualified poeple on the cheap as (I may be wrong) I believe they are exempt from teaching qual rules?

PGCE for the majority certainly I think

DS1 went to high performing independent school. He said that teachers who had not done PGCEs (often science teachers with doctorates) were at a disadvantage to start off as they lacked classroom experience and organisation - but they generally improved with experience! Ideally you would have a teacher with a good degree/postgraduate degree in that subject plus a PGCE plus an ability to teach - and eyes in the backs of their heads.

I think a large school could get away with taking on unqualified teachers because the structures for training would be available in-house. It wouldn't work in a small school where there are not many people in any given department.

ISA schools, however, have a very rigorous induction process for new members of staff, both NQTs and experienced teachers.

My cousin (1st from Oxford) has just started teaching in a very prestigious public school, where only about half the staff have PGCEs - many of them recent graduates. She says that, for the teachers, it's rather like being thrown in at the deep end, but the learning process is remarkably rapid! And most schools give a lot of structured support to new staff, qualified or not.

Independent schools tend to attract the best graduates due to better salaries and perks: I'd rather my children were taught by an unqualified teacher with a first class degree from a first rate university than a teacher with a PGCE and a 2:2 from Luton (often the case, sadly).

Not all qualified teachers have PGCEs or a BeD, even in state schools. You can become a qualifed teacher by the graduate teacher scheme. (GDP) Also a lot of state schools employ overseas teachers who have limited experience of teaching bratish western kids. In many developing countries children are much better behaved as they see education as tremenous privilage.

I think a PGCE is proof that someone is not a disaster in the classroom. Having a top degree does not necessarioly make someone a good teacher. It is a certain X factor and someone with a third class degree from Luton may well be fanastic at relating to kids and a better bet than someone with a first from Oxford.

You won't pass your PGCE if you're not able to cope in the classroom - so in that respect it's useful to know that someone has it.
As someone said, people without a PGCE may be people who qualified ages ago, so it may be an indicator of an older, fairly static staff.

A PGCE doesnt necessarily mean you'll be an excellent teacher, and equally you could be a great teacher without one.

BUT probably the major factor which would put me off is that anyone going into teaching seriously is likely to get one, and it would certainly put you at a disadvantage in the state sector not to have one these days. I would worry that a lot of the staff had never taught in the state sector and had gone straight into private as an 'easy option'. That would ring alarm bells for me.

Check and see if the ones without a PGCE have a BEd

Most private schools will expect teacher to have a PGCE or equivalent....the school the my two go to have no 'unqualified' teachers at all.

You can work in both the State and Private sectors without them and you are paid on the 'Unqualified' scale. I did this for 2 terms while completing my PGCE

I taught for seven years in a good independent school, with no PGCE. I was a very keen graduate and I taught part-time to begin with, whilst studying for my MA part-time as well. After a few years I considered getting QTS (Qualified Teacher Status) but was so busy teaching full-time and being a Head of Year as well, that I didn't do it...then I got pregnant and that was that as I left the school to have my DD!
No one in my department had a 'proper' teaching qualification and we were all super-keen and successful in terms of exam results and numbers of pupils taking up our subject at A-level. We had a school inspection and 'passed' with flying colours.

I hope to return to teaching when my youngest starts school. I may well then try and get QTS within the school, if they want me too, as I am keen to have it if possible.

So - in conclusion I would not be concerned, I would be more interested in the results of the school at GCSE and AS/ A-level. And definitely read their last inspection report thoroughly as lots of lessons are observed and weaker teaching is commented on.

If you want to get QTS, look into the OU as they run an assessment only route into the qualification that is designed for people like you who are obviously qualified without being formally qualified IYSWIM

I used to be a lawyer and wanted to become a maths teacher. As I had a law degree not a maths degree, I was told I wouldn't be able to teach maths in a state secondary school. This is despite the fact that I achieved an A in A level maths a year early and did Additional maths. I was very disappointed as didn't have the time to take a Maths degree and PGCE.

So I trained for a primary PGCE and then went and taught Maths at an independent prep school, teaching 11-13 year old but more importnantly for me, subject matter up to GCSE equivalent.

Yes, I could have gone straight to an independent school without a PGCE but I felt it was important. I think paretns who pay for their childrens' schooling should expect properly trained staff. Having said that, I'm not sure the PGCE was that useful and think I could have done the job without it.

So I think some people are ok without a PGCE or BEd and others aren't. No - just having a degree in the subject dos not mean you can teach it.

Don't confuse PGCE with QTS, at the moment you do not need PGCE (academic masters level qualification) to get QTS (Qualified teacher status) based on classroom practice. It is possible to do very well in PGCE but not be a great teacher. Independent shcools are notorious for taking on staff who would not be considered qualified for the state sector. I'd go on how the school 'feels' to you, are staff/kids happy, nice atmosphere etc, rather than quals.

Does it mean they have other qualifications. GTP or overseas qualifications?

thank you duckyfuzz - exactly what I wanted to say, but I kinda lost it along the way!!!

Yes - I do have a PGCE but I wouldn't be able to teach 13 year olds in a state school. However luckily the independent schools saw that I had the ability and so I am now in the perfect job.

You're right in that you don't have to have a PGCE to get QTS in an indepemdent school.

I have a PGCE, I think it was a necessary qualification. Without it I would not have gained insight into theories of learning.

Some teachers have BEd QTS status, and these have the greater advantage in terms of educational training.

I think you get good and bad in both sectors. Independent schools can take teachers without QTS - I guess they must be of variable quality, with less theory behind them.

Ducky Fuzz is right though, look at the school as I think committed teachers, who read and keep up with best practise are the most thorough and effective. SATs results do not necessaruly reflect this, but an OFSTED should pick it up, as should value added scores.

I would say that teachers can be of 'variable quality', blackrock, whether they have a formal teaching qualification or not!! Many of the best, most passionate, intelligent and talented teachers I have worked with had no PGCE or QTS. Likewise, many passionate, intelligent and talented teachers I worked with did have a PGCE or QTS. Swings and roundabouts.

A PGCE is not 'necessary' for teaching within the independent sector (sorry if I'm repeating other people). I have just been browsing jobs on the TES website, and not one in my subject asks for a PGCE or QTS. They all, naturally, want a good degree in the approriate subject (for senior school teaching).

Thanks for the heads up about gaining QTS via the OU, Martianbishop - I'll definitely have a look into it! The reason I would like to have QTS is, I suppose, because it would consolidate my teaching experience into a recognised 'qualification'. I would hope to be successful having years of good GCSE and A-level results behind me, plus being in charge of GCSE coursework etc. It would also give me a bit of a confidence boost as once I want to return to teaching, I'll have been out of practice for a number of years (apart from exam marking).

IMHO, I would not be concerned with formal teaching qualifications, and I won't be when I look for schools for my DC (if we go down the independent route). I only have my seven years' experience to go on, but in that time I came across many, many teachers - enough, I think, to form my opinion!

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Well said, bloss - I forgot to say that I learnt lots from watching my colleagues teach. I agree completely that somebody cannot be be taught to be a great teacher - so much of it is personality and, I think, an innate skill.

Out of interest, do you have a PGCE or do you have QTS?

Your school sounds a fab place to teach in...I'm trying to work out which one it is now! St Paul's? Winchester College??? I'm only jesting, anonymity is important I know.

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Oooh...detective Stick will get to work!