Sorry - what am I meant to be looking for in a secondary school?

[ahundredtimes]

We are touring schools.

I don't even know what I'm meant to be looking for.

Facilities? Happy pupils? Are teenagers happy though?

What else?

It's VERY hard. I went to a school with no rules but a lovely staircase. I don't feel qualified.

Tips would be welcome.

the best advice I've been give so far: don't just try to imagine your 11 year old dc there; imagine him/her there at 16.

Stops you choosing small and cuddly but possibly stifling school or larger, perhaps more scary - initially - school with scope for kids to spread their wings a bit

Observe them on public transport - very telling.

Where you can approach the teachers and you can see them interact with the children and visa versa.

I see cod said that but I typed it anyway, so won't delete. So there.

this is a v good thread

went to another open day today - wandered around with a deadpan dd1, saying "oooh! look at the lovely art!" brightly, while thinking "what can I ask this Yr 8 girl next?". Anything vaguely tricky was answered with "umm, well I'm not sure, I've only been here a year/I haven't got to GCSE yet" or whatever. Meanwhile they kept saying to DD1 "would you like to do some trampolining?" or "would you like to ahve a go on the computers in the language suite" or "would you like to cast a pot?" and she kept saying "no, thank you" and smiling sweetly and moving on.

She looked so uninvolved that when we left I said "so what did you think", thinking she would say "Nope, not for me" but she said "I really liked it".

So what do I take out of that little trip? I don't really know. Except the 6th form who wear jeans and ballet shoes on a daily basis have to wear hideous green blazers and boaters on "special days" and all looked completely ridiculous....

DS1 has liked all the schools we've visited, particularly if they've given him biscuits, stickers or sweets. The girl who took him round our local school which has a less than stellar reputation quickly pronounced him a maths genius (he is far from that, but did some game with dominoes quickly) and introduced him thus to all her friends. It's probably his favourite school now .

lol singersgirl. Yes, THAT is the way to go, surely. We left with loads of stickers and sweets too.

Okay. Next Saturday, I'm going to be hot at this. I'll be in the loos and looking at the lockers.

It's quite reassuring that now I know what to look for, that I think this school did have all that. DS1 v. keen which is a start I guess.

I like the 16 y-o advice too.

Go for it PPH. Cod will be thrilled by the boaters.

God how do you know this stuff. Is impressive.

I've got loads of questions to ask tour guide now. Thank you.

I've done this, four schools, twice. Eight secondary schools, Independent and state. And I realise I have no good advice whatsoever. But we chose an Independent without a lake and we are all very very pleased with our choice. I like a relaxed University campus feel with a strong work ethic.

Know your child, trust your instincts.

Oh we are doing this now 100x and I am heartily sick of it all.

Today's school trip to visit another school was full of the usual claptrap statistics and stuff. It has made my head ache working out what is important and I think that value-added is the best measure - but you will probably have to work that out for yourself for an independent school.

Anyhow I have a new metric. I've decided that a school should stand or fall by the quality of its library. Today's 500 year old institution had a lamentable library which had this rule:

"Books are sorted by age groups and children in years 7-9 are not allowed to borrow books from the year 10+ section."

That helped me to cross it off my list.

I think cod's advice is very good

Look at the loos - its where the action happens between lessons

They only invite their most presentable/personable children to be tour guides on open day.

I upset ours because he wasn't very tall, and I said 'Are you in Year 8?' and was appalled and said 'No, year 10'. Then I spent ages trying to make up for that appalling attack on his ego.

it's all been v. tiring.

Right. Stupid question from the undereducated number 567:

What exactly are value added scores?

And how do I work them out?

[please bear in mind I took my maths o'level FIVE TIMES, I will repeat that, FIVE TIMES. Never got more than a U. So go slow with me]

Value added means their sat scores, then add a few (or lots) of points according to how disadvatanged or not the children who attend the school are perceived to be

So a school in a rough/poor/deprived neighbourhood might get low scores but extra points because of the area

Kids in a nicer area are likely to get better results in SATs so will accordingly get far fewer if any value added points

HTH - I am not an expert though!

And also Swedes I don't trust my instincts. That's the problem. Half the time I think, yes, yes, endeavour, excellence, excellent, excellent. Then half the time I think Oh fgs, how boring all this is. All these hoops, let's go to Summerhill.

DH sane though. And this thread helping too. He will be saved from Summerhill.

YG. Okay. Thank you. I think their value added likely to be low given the area.

Personally I loved the concept of rating a school according to how fab the staircase is

What a fabulous indicator of accademic achievement!

Weeell noooo. You see, marvellous beautiful staircase, domed ceiling, a rotunda, marble steps and iron balustrades.

But an o'level in ANYTHING?

Pah.

I would probably see if the school could nurture your child's interests and aptitudes - eg theatre and drama for a dramatic kid, languages specialism, fab sports facilites or whatever, then look at how well behaved the kids are, see if you click with the head at all (ie think they are a good person with he right ideas) and then I'd want to know how many kids get into Oxford or Cambridge, not because my kids will necessarily be able to get there, but I think it says a lot about the expectations of and aspirations for hte pupils if they do offer it as a realistic chance and ideally offer coaching etc.

the most useful value-added is not based on sats, it's based on end of school qualifications as this is when they leave school (no employer is ever going to ask what your child got in their SATs, esp given the chaos its descended into over the past few years!).

If you go onto the dcsf website onto this page and serahc for the school, look at the section that is headed: "Key Stage 2 to 4 Contextual Value Added Measure" and/or "Key Stage 3 to 4 Contextual Value Added Measure" and if this figure is over 1000, the school 'adds value' as in it help the pupils achieve better results than would have been predicted when they entered the school in Year 7. If it's around 1000, the pupils do just as you would have expected, and obvsiouly under 1000 and they haven't done as well as their potential indicated.

Also look at the information in the top section for the school for how many pupils are on free school meals toegther with number of SEN pupils, as this will give you an indication of how inclusive the school is and also what the socio-economic factors might be on pupil-attainment.

If you want I can interpret any info on given schools if you like (obv just looking at their figures) but I could also review their websites for you!

I don't think that value added has socio-economic indicators other than if a school is in a more deprived area its children will get lower KS2 results, essentially KS2 sats are used to predict GCSE results and like moomin says a score of 1000 indicates the children did as expected. It does seem that the higher the KS2 feeder results are the more difficult it is to get a very high value added score, obviously if children are meeting there potential at primary or not will impact on the value added the secondary gets.

wonderstuff is right - selective and private schools will have very little value-added comapred to a good state high school but that doesn't necessarily mean they're no good; just that they have tests that weed out pupils unlikely to perform well academically at the end of their eductaion there.(unless they are an inclusive private school or somesuch).

I know ahundredtimes - my attempt at sarcasm

I am interested to know whether you have managed to achieve accademically since leaving school

The ironic thing is that I did achieve at school but have little confidence about my ability to work in a suitably qualified job now - which shows i guess that a good education doesnt necessarily get you anywhere much

The head has to look interested and competent. Helps if she/he knows the pupils names. And actually wants to talk to you when you ask questions.

Don't personally like huge schools. Probably because it seems so alien to my experience.

Are the children polite and helpful? Do you know any children who go there?

Ofsted report.