Higher or lower set for KS4? Secondary teachers - Help!!!

[Topsy1980]

Secondary Teachers - could someone who’s missed half of KS3 manage GCSEs? My 14yo dd (Y9) stopped attending school in Jan 2025. Prior to this 100% attendance all through primary and Y7. At end of Y7 she was moved down into a low set after school ranked all the pupils based solely on end of Y7 tests. This moved her away from all her friends and into a class where my dd said work was too easy and pupils’ behaviour was really disruptive. I complained etc to school but they refused to move her. She stuck it out for a term of Y8 and then attendance dropped more and more til she’s stopped trying to go in at all since January this year.
Now for KS4 the pupils are split into two groups to choose options - higher and lower bands (x and y). My dd is in the lower band.
My question is - if I asked them to move her into the higher band is it likely she’d cope having missed 18 months of KS3?

Thank you. This was my thinking. She’s insisting on going back but I think she’d much better academically at home, but I do worry about her socially if she’s always with me and she says she wants to be back (she just says she can’t right now 🤦‍♀️)

I’ve tried section 19. My LA do either S19 or SEN route. Initially EHCP was refused to issue but they overturned that at mediation. My understanding is that school can use the band B funding that she’s been granted for her to access some online Alternative Provision. She’ll have missed almost 2 years of school by the time this happens due to the systems and processes. It’s all a joke 🤦‍♀️

My LA do either S19 or SEN route.

Whoever told you this lied to you. You could have forced, and still can if DD is unable to attend school full-time, the LA to provide alternative provision as per their s19 duty.

As I said, it is the LA with ultimate responsibility for ensuring DC unable to attend still receiving a suitable, full-time education. They will often try to fob parents off by saying the school should provide AP, but it is the LA who is ultimately responsible.

Not being in mainstream school doesn’t mean DD has to be with you all the time. DC not in mainstream can still have social opportunities.

I’m not a teacher but my DD missed 18 months of school and returned to foundation maths. She had tutors at home to catch up on what she’d missed and was moved to higher. But as others say, in most school they can only move her up from foundation if it’s proven in mocks / assessments etc that she is at a higher level than a student who is already doing higher.

If her remaining friends are from a lower set surely it’s better for her to return in the lower band so she can catch up and be with her friends?

When she was moved down initially, was this a reflection of her academic ability, or the fact she was struggling SEN wise? What did she get in SATS/assessments the school have done?

If she’s actually academically capable and just didn’t have the right support, one route (if financially viable) might be to hammer it with tutors over summer to get her caught up, and ask for her to be reassessed for sets in September.

Thank you. Are there particular subjects we should focus on if we did this approach?
She was academically able. She achieved well in SATs, and on their on-entry tests into Y7 she was in the top 20%. At Y7 parents evening I was told she was doing well and exactly where she should be. Then they moved her down solely based on end of y7 test scores for which no SEN support was in place. But she is now quite far behind I imagine and I’m not sure how to get her caught up. She’s been massively failed and no one, neither school nor the LA, has taken any responsibility for this.

HI @Topsy1980 to try to answer your last question, I would suggest a focus on English language and literature, maths and science, as these are usually compulsory GCSEs, plus any subjects she is particularly interested in (history, music, PE, geography?).

Am I right in thinking she has been out of education for almost 18 months? Is that pretty much all the time or was she still attending say half-time in year 8?

What has she been doing in terms of education in that time? Were you at home with her to support? You mention Sparx maths but not anything else – were you keeping up with the basics via any kind of online learning, CGP KS3 guides etc?

She did about half of Y8, tried to keep up with maths and English. She’s missed most of Y9. She did a term of maths and English in Y9 and has done lots of reading, sparx maths and some cgp maths. I work full time and did try her with oak academy but she didn’t like it. She will be way behind on science as she’s not done any of that.

OK well I suggest that you lay it on the line to her (if you think she will take it well) that if she really wants to go back to school and be in the higher group, she has a lot of work to get through.

Can you between you really blitz it over the next three months? Get the CGP guides for the sciences, English lang and maths, spend an hour working with her each evening and give her some tasks to complete the next day. There are lot of resources online as well. If she really wants to go back to the school she needs to catch up or it will be really challenging, even in the lower group.

Sparx Maths and something like MyGCSEScience does have the advantage that you can show and share progress with the school. It's clear evidence of what she has done / can do / can't do. Does the school have Sparx maths accounts or do you have a private one? Does the school use an online science revision tool as well?

If I were you I would have a proper meeting with the school, with follow-up in writing. Explain about the diagnosis. Show what she has done so far to keep up with maths and English and find out what she needs to do to slot back into the set she was in and also what she would need to do to qualify for higher sets and how realistic this is (be prepared that it may not be possible for logistic reasons, even if she technically manages to catch up at home). If the school make promises, get them in writing if possible.

what type of education has she engaged with at home? I have tutored children who have moved up quite quickly from lower sets. Is there an option for her to move bands/sets, if she does well in class tests/assessments.

Does being in the lower band massively restrict her?
eg is there a policy of lower band only doing Foundation tier for Maths/Science?

I can't really see that behaviour in the top set lower band would be bad as that is 'middle set' really.

I'm not a teacher. It sounds as though your daughter's school is very divisive, to be honest. Forcing people into two broad categories of higher and lower for everything is short sighted. It's perfectly possible to be amazing at Maths and crap at English, so what do they do in that case? Anyway, if that's how the school operate then there's not much you can do about it. Just a too rigid system for a kid that needs flexibility, perhaps. I have kids in Yr8 and Yr10 and the schools in our area put children into sets for Maths and Science (plus there is one top set for English, with about 10% of the year in it) only. Other subjects are all mixed ability. I am commenting because my son is in a higher Maths set but one of his friends is also in the set - he has lower Maths ability but is SEN and it's recognised that he works better in the higher set because he is unable to cope with the disruptions in a lower set. Flexibility is perfectly possible if you have a school that can show some empathy and understanding! Could you ask school if timetables allow for some element of mix and match between the two bands, as an exception for a school refusing SEN child (i.e. they won't have to do it for eveyone)? For example, she might need to be in a lower set for Maths if she's missed so much, but could she join friends in the other band for Art, PE, Geography, whatever?

Either way, if she wants to go back to school, I hope she can. Whether that's through the school offering flexibility or her accepting she needs to be in the lower band. Also, could she 'prove' herself and be promoted to the upper bad part way through the year? Another thing to speak to school about and might be a carrot for her to keep up attendance and hard work. Good luck!

@ThumbTowers

My dc's school does the split into two. It's partially for ease as they are large and it makes timetabling easier. However over having three dc there (and dh was a governor and they regularly reviewed this) I heard no complaints about that.

The way it's done at their school is it's split by maths/science with roughly 60/40 split. So 6 classes in the "upper" and 4 classes in the "lower". (they don't call them that; can't remember, but it's something bland)
But it isn't a case of top 180 kids in one, bottom 120 in the other.
The top sets in the lower and the bottom two sets in the upper overlap. The pupils in that ability range will have a lot of discussion which way they go with the pupils and the teachers. It's not totally their choice but it's discussed.
Typically the "upper" do triple science and higher maths, and the "lower" do double science and lower maths, but all children officially get a choice - my ds, who is a lazy little one was "upper" top set science and briefly thought he'd do double science for ease sake, and had several conversations where he discussed it before he made his decision.

The "lower" banding typically has smaller classes and a number are given an option of a practical course two days a week at the local technical college - things like car maintenance are on offer. That's very appealing to those who are switching off from school because they find it too academically challenging.
They couldn't do that if they didn't split the year because the timetabling would be too difficult - they have to make sure that 3 days have all the compulsory subjects like maths because they're not on site for two days.

Because the children round the border are given the option, there is no stigma to being in the "lower" band - they've chosen because they feel that will be better for them. Behaviour if anything is better in the top sets in the "lower" band - they are normally pupils who want to do well and are prepared to work.

So if a child is brilliant at maths and rubbish at English, do they go in the higher or lower band?

My kids are also at a large school that have to split the year group in half to accommodate timetabling, but they don't do it on ability.

Higher band, but then bottom set English within that, with more support.

If they were rubbish at maths and brilliant at English, they'd be in the lower band but top English set. If they are working above all others in that group, then they may be offered extra help after school to help them get to their potential. However there's always a number of good English students in the lower band, who are looking to achieve grade 7+ so it's not normally an issue.

It's not just about it being a bigger school, it's also to support those who benefit from the practical subjects offered at the technical college while allowing them to still do maths, English, science and some others (can't remember exactly) with extra support to try and get those GCSEs at 4 and above. Because they are off site for 2 days a week to enable this, it means that those subjects they do do have to be on the three days they are on site. This is for year 9 to year 11, so effects quite a lot of children over the school.

As I said, I've heard a lot of complaints about various things, but that one parents are supportive of because they see that it works for most children.

My DCs' school also split the year group for KS4. It was to facilitate triple science, which was taught in the same number of lessons as double, plus one extra a week, dropping one English or maths (alternately). Obviously this would require higher ability students, both for the pace of the lessons and to cope with the dropping of a core lesson a week.

The split did not mean all the double science group took foundation maths tho, for example. Nor science. It also didn't apply for option subjects as they were set all at the same time so could be quite mixed ability.

To answer your question above – (and I am a teacher) my experience is that children who are brilliant at maths and rubbish at English are pretty unusual. DS2 was and is a scientist but he was more than capable at English. He wasn't a massive fan and didn't get an especially high grade, but he is a smart lad so needed to be in triple stream (if I can call it that – it wasn't termed thus by school). Equally DD – loved English so so much, not a big fan of maths, did enough to get a solid 6. Again, no reason for her to be in a lower maths class as she was able.

Yes that is just two YP but I have taught thousands of students and honestly, I could count on the fingers of one hand those who would get a 9 in English but would struggle to get a grade 2/3 on the F maths paper. Or vice versa. Yes, as noted, maybe the maths fans won't try that hard at English or history but they could. And yes I know spiky profiles do exist, but they are honestly few. I think in the example you give that student at my DCs' school would have been in triple, perhaps with extra English support. School perforce has to work for the majority. Perhaps that's not a great thing and that's a different debate IMO. But to hold DS2 and his peers back in science, maths, English to the pace of the double groups – or to speed those kids up to triple pace – would not have worked.

Perhaps it's just SEN kids that this might not work for then? My dyslexic son - amazing at maths, crap at English. My autistic nephew - years ahead in Science, can't do anything else. Can't see how they fit such prescriptive boxes. The ops daughter, capable but held back by anxiety. Anyway, I don't want to de-rail the thread! I really hope school can be helpful and flexible in this case, op.

Yes unfortunately I suspect we are both talking about ND students. Not all for sure (my DD is ND but non-spiky). I say unfortunately bc they are often the YP for whom school can be a real challenge – and here schools are making it harder. The trouble is, schools have to have boxes that are somewhat prescriptive. An individualised curriculum and teaching methods are not practical with 250 YP in a year.

Your son may not shine at English but might that be due to barriers caused by dyslexia rather than innate lack of ability? Better for him perhaps if English could be assessed via an oral instead of written exam. It would be great if there were more variety of assessment available IMHO.