Didn’t get into any choices, placed into Catholic School - help

[morozova89]

Hi everyone, I’m really hoping someone might be able to offer some advice about secondary school appeals in London.

My son has been allocated a place at a Catholic secondary school, which we did not put on our application list. We are a different faith and not Catholic, so being placed in a faith school that isn’t ours feels very upsetting and uncomfortable for our family.

I’m also a single mum and have had to navigate this process on my own, and unfortunately my son’s dad hasn’t been helpful with any of it. I’m originally from Ukraine and not very familiar with the UK school system, so I did what I thought made sense at the time.

We listed four schools, three of which we genuinely believed were realistic choices based on distance and admissions. Sadly he wasn’t offered any of them. I realise now maybe I should have listed more, but I honestly didn’t know.

What has made it even more shocking is that all of my son’s close friends were offered places at our number one choice school, which is in our catchment area and part of the same federation as his current primary school. I know friendships aren’t a ground for appeal, but it has made the outcome quite difficult for him to understand.

My son was born in the UK, is in Year 6, and is doing well at his current primary school, so this has been a really confusing and upsetting situation for us.

I understand that appeals are usually made for a specific school rather than against the one offered, but being allocated a faith school that isn’t our faith and wasn’t on our list feels particularly difficult.

If anyone has experience with appeals, waiting lists, or what steps I should take next, I would be incredibly grateful for any advice. Thank you so much. 🙏

btw we are in London.

My eldest is going to a catholic school, he definitely doesn't bleeive in God. He knows that when they do prayers, he bows his head and keeps quiet. He doesn't have to pray. He does have to be respectful. I'd expect the same if he went to a Jewish school etc.

Their ethos and culture is about being a good person. There's nothing in their daily life at school where they'll be trying to turn him into a bad person or someone with a abhorrent cultural norm.

Keep appealing and go and visit but I would try not to stress about what sort of child they will want your child to br

In my DS catholic secondary school I would say less than half are catholic. I'm atheist and so is DS (told him to be open and think for himself so as not to be influenced by me or school). The reason I wanted him to go to that school is it's outstanding reputation for good behaviour and results. DS is happy and has learnt about all religions not just catholicism. @morozova89 look into the school before you dismiss it

I don't know how far back you are going when you refer to the "old system", but that kind of thing has not been allowed for at least 20 years, if not more. I'm not sure it was ever allowed.

The London Oratory was unusual amongst faith schools in trying to give priority based on grounds that were clearly prohibited by the Admissions Code. They got away with it for as long as they did simply because no-one referred them to the Schools Adjudicator. Once they did, the Adjudicator ruled against them.

And @ParentOfOne is wrong about the court case. It wasn't the National Secular Society and Humanists UK taking the school to court. It was actually the school that took the Schools Adjudicator to court with the British Humanist Association (which is now Humanists UK) joining as an interested party. The National Secular Society weren't involved at all. The school span the outcome as a win, but the reality is that they lost on all substantive points.

Late to the party but just to confirm that, as others have said, not wanting a Catholic school is unlikely to win an appeal. It doesn't matter what faith you are, there is no right for your child to be educated in a school of your chosen faith nor for your child to avoid being educated in a school of another faith. You do, however, have the right to withdraw your child from religious education and attendance at assemblies.

I note that you are going to see the school. That is good. Many faith schools aren't very religious at all. Indeed, some faith schools are less religious than some community schools (which in theory are not aligned to any faith). It is highly unlikely they will turn your child into a Catholic. Indeed, judging from posts on here from people who have been to Catholic schools, they are more likely to turn your child against Catholicism!

@prh47bridge It was actually the school that took the Schools Adjudicator to court with the British Humanist Association (which is now Humanists UK) joining as an interested party. The National Secular Society weren't involved at all.

Thank you for clarifying the details.

I don't know how far back you are going when you refer to the "old system", but that kind of thing has not been allowed for at least 20 years, if not more. I'm not sure it was ever allowed

I meant before the London Oratory was defeated.
This happened 10 years ago, not 20.

After it happened

The British Humanist Association (BHA) and the Fair Admissions Campaign (FAC) said their efforts had forced all schools to drop such criteria from admissions policies
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/mar/01/faith-schools-admissions-church-flower-arranging-eradicated-england

So these associations implied that the London Oratory was not the only school with such an abomination of a policy. However, I do not have details on how many other schools

IANAL so bow to prh, but I like reading this stuff 😀

The Office of the Schools Adjudicator raised the points in 2014 about the London Oratory’s admissions code being out of line with Diocesian guidelines in some respects. My understanding is that some deviation is allowed from those guidelines if it’s still fair under the Schools Admissions Code.

A judicial review (2015, sought by LO, as prh says) found that the OSA had overstated its case in some places (my interpretation on skimming the judgement), but that the LO still needed to make changes to their policies.

AFAIK no specific discrimination case was brought against the LO under the Equality Act or similar.

I can well believe that any other school that hadn’t already ditched such policies quietly changed them after the publicity around the OSA report or - at the latest - after the judicial review.

@morozova89 I am really glad you are going to see the allocated school and have got some assurance and information from this thread

I was aware of one other school with similar policies (albeit not quite as bad as London Oratory) which ditched them after the Adjudicator's decision. I haven't come across any others in all the years I've been looking at admission criteria.

The fact that London Oratory did it doesn't mean it was allowed. It wasn't, but at the time there were limits on who could refer a school to the Adjudicator and no-one did until 2014, so for a decade or more they had admission criteria that were unlawful.

Well, there's the situation where if the immediate area was used, the average house price and demographics in some London areas would ensure that there are next to no kids whose parents describe their ethnicity as Black African, Black Caribbean, Southern Asian or Southern/Eastern European offered places. Or poor kids of any ethnicity. But offer places based upon membership of Catholic-Other Faith Groups in that order ensured that children in receipt of FSM and/or are members of said faith groups but live a greater distance away in more diverse areas, lower house prices and in areas of largely social and rental housing are ranked high enough to be offered.

@NeverDropYourMooncup Are you implying that faith criteria make faith schools more inclusive and more diverse? If yes, where is the proof? Because all the evidence points to the exact opposite.

How would you feel if your taxes were used to finance a hospital which discriminates based on faith? Would it make your blood boil? Why do you accept it with schools then?

Have you ever stepped inside a Catholic Church in London? You will find that the majority of the congregation come from elsewhere and there large numbers of black churchgoers whose roots are in Africa and the Caribbean not to mention families from places like Goa and Sri Lanka. And don't forget the Poles and Lithuanians. Years ago when I was growing up the children in my convent school class were predominantly from working class Irish families and Italians who came to the UK to work. Most Catholics in the UK have roots elsewhere. There was a bit of a stigma then and that seems to have survived here on mumsnet!

Totally off topic, but it’s that first paragraph that completely boils my piss - the fact that you can be forced by the state to send your child to a religious school. It shouldn’t/doesn’t matter how religious it actually ends up being in practice, the fact is it is a religious school and you have no choice but to expose your child to it. There will likely be religious paraphernalia littered throughout the school, and the child would have to be removed from elements (such as morning prayers, if necessary), which leads to unnecessary ‘othering’.

@prh47bridgeI know you are a legal professional (who very generously provides fantastic advice to lots of mumsnet users) - do you know if this principle has ever been challenged, or could it be? Not necessarily through the school admissions appeals process, which obviously has a narrow remit, but as a bigger human rights issue (or similar), whereupon the principle of religious education is considered. I have two DC, though still young and only one currently of school age, and I genuinely don’t know what I would do if I ever ended up in a situation like the OP. I would love to overthrow all state funded religious education in this country, and surely there are organisations out there who would like to do the same/may have already tried?

This was years ago and primary school allocation too. We were offered a Catholic school that wasn’t on our list and very far away. We had appplied through the Protestant faith to our closest school, although not a member of that particular church but had a letter from our priest. We successfully appealed against the Catholic school place due to religion. They then offered us a Church of England school much closer but one we hadn’t applied to. This was baby boom years and all primary schools in our area had to add extra space quickly the next 1-2 years.

@NimbleMauveRobin
So anecdotes vs research? I see...

https://humanists.uk/2024/10/11/six-hard-hitting-facts-about-faith-schools/

Religious schools frequently discriminate against the most vulnerable children in society. As we’ve seen recently in England and Wales, church schools routinely prioritise children ‘of the faith’ over those in care. In doing so, they are exploiting loopholes in the School Admissions Code and undermining the principle that all children, regardless of background or belief, deserve equal access to education. Faith schools are failing the very children so many of them were created to serve.
(see link above for examples)

The Sutton Trust:
www.suttontrust.com/our-research/selective-comprehensives-2024/
In general, schools with a religious affiliation (faith schools) continue to be more socially selective than non-religious schools. [...] Schools affiliated with nonChristian religions are the most socially selective overall while Catholic schools continue to be the most socially selective in the top 500.

What I find intellectually dishonest about supporters of faith schools is that you lot will point to examples of socially selective faith school to suggest they are "better" (why does believing a priest turns a wafer into the body of a deity make a school and its students better? Mistery!!), but will then point to undersubscribed, poorly performing faith schools to suggest they are diverse and inclusive!

The London Oratory has 12% pupils on free school meals: https://www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/school/137157/the-london-oratory-school/absence-and-pupil-population

Just 2kms south, St John Bosco has 53%: https://www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/school/135762/saint-john-bosco-college/absence-and-pupil-population

Wanna guess which has top results, and which has been undersubscribed for as long as I can remember, because (almost) no one wants to go there?

Yes, free school meals is a very imperfect metric of "social selection", but these differences are too striking to be ignored. Also, just walk outside those schools and have a look at the students: you don't need a PhD in demography to see which of the two has a diverse intake, and which isn't.

Also, I see you conveniently dodged the inconvenient question about hospitals. How would you feel if everyone's taxes were used to finance fundamental services, like hospitals ambulances police fire brigades, which discriminated based on faith? Would you find it an abomination? Why do you then accept it for schools? Care to answer?

@sexnotgenders My view, as someone who isn't a legal scholar, is that a couple of factors will contribute to making change hard if not impossible:

• the UK does not have a written Constitution which explicitly states, with the same clarity as those of other countries, that discriminating the provision of state-funded social services based on faith is illegal

• Churches tend to own the land on which the schools are located, and the State won't have the money nor the political will to compensate them in a hypothetical expropriation. Of course, by the same logic, we should have never abolished slavery, because who was going to compensate the poor slave owners?

• Too many Brits switch their brains off and think that any change to "traditions" is an unacceptable challenge to the British way of life. In many other countries, after Prince Andrew's scandals there would have been a revolution, but not here, here too many people still fail to appreciate that coming out of a royal vagina doesn't make you a better person

I am not making a point about hospitals or fire services. I am simply pointing out that the Catholic church I England and London in particular is incredibly diverse and to suggest otherwise is wrong. You might also be unaware that Catholic education authorities have their own children's services which work with their schools. They provide support (not necessarily available elsewhere) to children in those schools affected by domestic violence, homelessness, refugee issues etc. I am not aware of any rules which exclude non Catholic children fron those services - and there are many non Catholic children in Catholic schools today.

@ParentOfOne maybe PP didn’t answer your question about hospitals because this is a thread started by a mother about her specific school allocation, rather than a general debate thread about religion and the state?

ETA x- post

Glad you're feeling better about the school itself OP but I wouldn't lose faith on the waiting lists. If you're in Hackney have you considered city of London Shoreditch park? It's fairly new so seems less over subscribed but its stars are amazing and it's getting good reviews on here.

PS in London I'd say waiting lists are much more likely to give you a positive outcome than appeals unless you have an EHCP

Faith based state schools can prioritise children of that faith. However they cannot only take that faith, because they are still a school which is counted in the state provision for local children numbers wise. As far as I know, there is no such thing as NOT taking a child of a different faith legally unless it is a private school.

I'd check that there hasn't actually been a mistake - like the school you wanted has taken children that live further away than your son and he's somehow been missed, otherwise the Catholic school is the one that he fits into based on the criteria. If you didn't fill the application form completely, then that will have given more likelihood of your child being given a school he didn't chose. The council will try to put you in a school on your form if they can, but if you don't fit into any of them, they can look at the next nearest school with space.

@sexnotgenders - Yes, a challenge on human rights grounds has been tried. It failed. I'm not aware of a case that has gone all the way to the ECHR, but decisions on faith-related matters by that court (e.g. a non-UK case where parents objected to the sex education provided by schools on faith grounds) are used by the UK courts as a guide.

In essence, it is about choice. If the government forced a Jewish child to attend a Moslem school, for example, that would be a breach of their human rights. However, that isn't what happens. A Jewish child may be offered a place at a Moslem school, but that doesn't mean the parents have to send their child there. They can home educate, or send their child to an independent school, or send their child to any state school that has places available. The fact these options are available (even if some of them may not be practical for the family) means it is not a breach of the parents' human rights for their child to be offered a place at a faith school of the wrong faith.

Catholic schools in my borough at least follow the RE curriculum agreed by all faith leaders in the borough so RE is the same in every state school there. Catholic schools no longer prepare children for first communion or confirmation. That is done in the parish and you will find many children from non Catholic schools in those classes but this has nothing to do with the school.

@sexnotgenders I do find 'boils my piss' a somewhat vulgar phrase that I've not come across outside of mumsnet

I live in an area with one of the highest proportions of church schools in the country (Liverpool). And yes, the church schools are vastly more middle class than the alternatives. Because the middle classes, broadly speaking, are invested in education, are more likely to be educated, literate, English-speaking and to understand the school applications system.
It is extremely normal in my children's' primary school for atheist families to attend church for three years just to get a school place. In fact, there are local churches which run special children's services attended by over a hundred children every week to facilitate this.
Yes, of course, there are working-class religious families too. But if you work retail or other shift work, if you're in poor health, if you live in insecure accommodation, if you're dealing with addiction or mental health issues, if weekends are your only chance to deal with family crises, you will struggle to get to church every week.
One of our local church schools was so oversubscribed that a friend of mine who attended church every week for three years, but lived several miles away, did not get a place. And she's a genuine Christian who's attended church her entire life.
That's not rewarding actual religious belief, it's rewarding people who work 9-5 office jobs, who are in good physical and mental health, whose lives are functional enough that they live in the same area for three years and who care enough about education that they read the school admissions guidelines when their child was in infant school.
I'm reminded of Goodhart's Law: "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure." This is true of basically any school admissions criteria barring pure lottery.

Furthermore Catholic schools have a clear admissions code which follow borough guidelines. There are local government governors on every governing body who oversee this. They do not as your article suggests(without any evidence) exclude looked after children or children with special needs. I was a governor myself and was chair of admissions! Catholic schools also have an extra pastoral element. I have myself seen many cases where clergy have supported families in really heartbreaking scenarios where teachers in an ordinary school would probably not feel they could help and would have to refer families on. You obviously dislike religious schools and religion in general but please allow others to seek support and solace there if they want and definately refrain from mocking them.