Latymer Grammar - how clever do you have to be?

[runningpram]

We are thinking whether to put DD 8 through 11 plus. I know north London grammars are incredibly competitive - but trying to work out if you have to be some kind of genius?
It looks like you might have to be for QE Boys and HBS and clearly you need to be very bright for the others - but how bright? I noticed that Latymer's GCSE grades were 67% 7-9 - so clearly over a third of entries were a six or below.
Obviously these are perfectly decent grades but don't suggest that everyone has an off the scale IQ. Could someone give me a sense of what the reality is and whether a top 10% bright kid at a state school that is definitely not a grammar feeder would stand a chance at getting in without insane levels of tutoring?

The two children from my school who got in last year were naturally both very bright. One was tutored, the other wasn't.

Top 10% and tutoring you should be fine / it's worth applying.

Remember it also depends on the day - some kids can "perform" others choke....

Hello OP, I attended Latymer myself but a long time ago, so I won’t claim to have recent personal experience. However, based on friends’ DC and my own primary teaching experience I’d say it’s highly competitive but a bit less so than QEB, HB and also DAO now that’s become more sought after; I think Latymer’s ‘gritty’ location will always put off a certain proportion of potential candidates, and it’s a little more likely to be able to achieve a place without intensive tutoring than other super-selectives.

We live locally but will be moving out of London to avoid the 11+ tutoring frenzy - DD is also 8 and academic but I don’t want to put her through the process and we don’t have a non-selective ‘Plan B’ that we’d be happy with.

I’d also bear in mind that in recent years Latymer has become very STEM-focused, so there is also that factor to consider- part of the reason we have decided to move is that we are looking for something slightly more balanced and holistic.

Finally, just to add that I’ve had a quick check of the most recent Times Parent Power league table and according to that Latymer achieved 84.1% of entries at grades 7-9 this year.

You don't have to be "some kind of genius" for HBS either :)

DS went to Latymer albeit a while ago, it wasn't a Mensa club but they do expect children to be motivated and independent learners.

Yes - you are correct! Oh dear - I am not sure where 67pc came from😂but i guess even
with 84pc there are still a few people
scoring a couple of 5s and 6s.

They score the maths paper first. If you don’t pass the maths paper they don’t bother marking the rest. So even if you are a genius otherwise, you’re out if maths isn't as good.

DD was one of the top in her class and had tutoring when she sat for Latymer last year. She didn’t make it through the first round.

I’m not saying this to put you off because we don’t regret going for it and you absolutely should if you think your child has a good shot and would thrive in that environment. But it is competitive. There were 2,400 applications for 192 places. The children who got in from DD’s school were tutored very intensively. We didn’t go that far, just a weekly tutor. It’s important to know what you’re up against and it’s also important to focus on the maths as the other papers aren’t even marked if your child isn’t in the top 700 after maths which is a bummer for those who are stronger in English, especially when around 50% of those 700 are out of catchment and only a handful move into catchment by the deadline.

I don’t think it’s about how clever a child is these days, it’s about how prepared for that particular exam. And children have good days and bad days, sometimes the papers click, sometimes they don’t. Sometimes they get overwhelmed, sometimes they don’t. But 192 children have to get in so why not your child? It’s worth a shot. Go in with eyes wide open, give it a go and best of luck.

@runningpram given the numbers at play for Latymer, putting your best foot forward unfortunately means tutoring is almost necessary.

Of course some get in without it, but it’s a low probability outcome and I think you have to consider how you would feel looking back if you tried without tutoring and didn’t get a place?

How badly do you want her to go to Latymer?

We approached the 11+ in terms of trying to have no regrets. I think worst feeling to have in this is wishing you did something different - we have friends who didn’t do tutoring and didn’t get their target schools and they completely regretted it.

As PP said the maths paper is the first hurdle, so if you daughter is not up to speed there, it will be hard to get a place.

Thank you - very useful points.
We are trying to find a tutor - so we will go from there__

I’d be inclined to agree with @Cloudyskyline; the DC I know who have got in have generally had fairly intensive tutoring from about Year 4, although some go earlier than that. One mum I know took a six-month sabbatical from work to get her son through the test (it paid off, thankfully!) As I said above, it is very slightly less frenzied than QEB etc but only very slightly!

I think there’s no harm in having a go though if you have a solid comp alternative that you’d be happy with and likely to get into, especially if your DD is strong in maths.

I still don’t really get why a significant number of GCSE entries are under a 7 in that case - if the tutoring is that extreme? Is it perhaps that they are all v strong on maths so ace that but weaker in other subjects?

@runningpram I think that could be exactly it; I haven’t dug down into the stats in that forensic a way but from my knowledge of similar schools students do often ace the maths and other STEM subjects but their English Language/Lit/MFL can be much less secure - just not prioritised in the same way.

Latymer are clearly aware of this; when we recently went to the Open Day they made a point of saying that they won’t fast track pupils through maths GCSEs or offer intensive maths training ahead of other subjects (something that a lot of the parents of current candidates are pushing for).

I looked at Latymer’s most recently published A’level results (2022-24) and out of 205 students in that Year 13 cohort 185 had studied maths vs only 35 for English Lit and so on - obviously STEM is popular generally at the moment but I see them very much becoming a ‘STEM school’. Plus there’s an increasing proportion of EAL students, which might impact both take-up and outcomes in the Humanities.

Many recent cohorts are also quite boy-heavy (up to 70:30 in some years) which again might be influencing this.

In some cases, children are extensively tutored to get through the tests but unless that continues for the next 5 years, they are not able to excel going forward. Some parents see getting in at any cost to be the goal, but a bright y4/5/6 child is not necessarily an equally as bright y10/11. My own child was top group in primary but very average in secondary school.

Just wanted to share our experience in case it’s helpful. My DD didn’t have any tutoring, but I bought a large set of Latymer mock exam papers.

During the 8 weeks summer holiday, for the first few weeks on weekdays she did Maths/VR one day and English comprehension/writing the next. I helped her review mistakes and made sure she understood them, then we kept weekends relaxed and took a full week off for a holiday.

In the final three weeks before the exam, we increased the intensity: Maths/VR in the morning and English in the afternoon. With the help of chatGPT, I analysed her weak areas, created short targeted exercises, and put together a 7-day writing improvement plan.

Her Rank 1 and 2 results were very encouraging, and she also secured a music place. My point is that with some parental support, especially helping children avoid repeating the same mistakes in Maths and VR, it is possible to succeed without tutoring.

You know your child’s pace, strengths and weaknesses best, and a more focused, tailored approach can sometimes be more effective than hiring a tutor who doesn’t yet know your child well.

Thank you - that is good to know. If you don’t mind me asking - was your daughter at a private or state school?

Unfortunately some children experience issues which disrupt their educations, for example medical problems or divorce or death in the family.

But I think it's more that the entrance criteria are fairly STEM biased and these children may simply not be interested or care much about other subjects. The breakdown of their GCSE scores shows 96% 9-7s in Maths, 87-90% in the Sciences, 77-81% in English, and 65-72% in Art & Drama, although my guess is that relatively few students take the last two subjects.

Wondering about the benefits of grammar school vs being at a good comprehensive which has sets.

She’s at a girls’ prep school, and after the exam all they said was that their maths teacher had covered everything came up in the Latymer exam. The mock test papers were much harder than the real exam, no algebra, and not many lengthy or multi steps problem solving questions. But it’s still harder than Atom.

Yes and no.. depends on the willingness of the kid to prepare for exams, especially during summer prior to test, their overall school performance should be significantly above average throughout the school years (so naturally bright), and how they feel on the day. I would say all three points are strongly correlated with the chance of getting the offer.

Hi @AnotherMumHerex I’m currently preparing my daughter for the Latymer exams and trying to decide between several mock papers, including Exam Papers Plus. Would you be willing to share which mocks you ended up using?
Thanks so much!

My son goes to QE and I'd say the biggest misconception is that everyone is some kind of genius. Most people are bright, but hard work and being well-prepared matter just as much. A top 10% child with good preparation would certainly have a realistic chance.

Hi @runningpram ! Some interesting responses so far!

I would prepare with a tutor as we did; I know many families which put a lot into music, drama, sport - so why not a bit into academics? A foundation of basic academic aptitude is important, but it's mainly about preparation. Sustained hard work counts in the end. Hardly anyone at such a school is actually a genius and your child's position sounds fine.

Whatever happens, your child will start Year 7 with confidence in English and Maths and, crucially, a work ethic. For us, 11 Plus was about hard work and ensuring recreational activity and time with family and community.

The point about STEM subjects is that now employers value these more; they also like Masters degrees more,by the way. And many jobs are with corporations with an international culture, which is more used to Managers and Leaders with STEM backgrounds, often supplemented by MBAs.

Anyhow, good luck with whatever you decide. Please PM me if you want a recommendation for a Tutor or just some more on what we did with our daughter.

I have a child at Latymer who wasn't heavily tutored, we only started in about May of Y5. In terms of practice papers, as well as the past Latymer papers, they also did some past papers from other 11+ schools like City. She was at a pretty basic state school and definitely hadn't covered all the stuff in the Maths paper by the time she did the exam at the start of year 6. I don't think you have to be a genius but you do have to be quite focused.

On the grades, I think 84% 7-9 is pretty high. For context, pupils need to get a minimum of six 7s to stay on to A level and a minimum of 7 in their A level subjects. I believe there are a handful that miss this each year.

Some of the lower grades could be because of the set up. All children have to do a language and humanity at GCSE which obviously suits some more than others (though the results above are still pretty great). On the whole, it's a great school and while it may seem to have a STEM focus, there's great language teaching, amazing music and decent art and drama, regular concerts and school plays every year.