Teacher or subject dependent selective behaviour

[Blablaboom]

DS has just started secondary but in his old prep school. He will move to a new school in y9.
Unfortunately, DS seems to select which lessons he behaves/works well in and which he can just ignore. If he finds the teacher boring or if he dislikes the subject, he does not apply himself or sometimes distract others. He's already had several detentions. We've had several meetings with his form tutor. There doesn't seem to be much change. His homework has improved compared to September but in class, it seems to be the same. Likes teacher/subject, no problem. Dislikes the teacher/subject, plays up.
Anyone been there? How do you make the child accept that he's got to respect teachers or subjects in the same way? DS is very strong willed (always has been). The school think we should test for ADD. We think he's just decided to do what he likes. A battle of wills.
Thank you!
(I will ignore all the can't you control your kid trolling type comments)

Will the new school for year 9 ask for a report from his current school?

so he has listened and worked well up to now and continues to work well in many lessons but is defiant and rude to teachers he doesn’t like. I’m guessing it’s not a hyper focus thing as he is basing it on the teachers he likes/dislikes and not the actual subjects. ADHD is not a reason for a child to be rude to teachers so I think you’re right to want to nip that in the bud now. It’s worth getting him tested if school have mentioned it, but if he has no other indicators at all, he might just be bored and acting out. I have a 13 year old. He isn’t disrespectful in class but he definitely doesn’t apply himself in subjects where the class teacher is boring which is quite normal.

is defiant and rude to teachers he doesn’t like

This IS an ADHD thing. If the teacher is rigid and less flexible then adhd kids can kick back. It’s just part of it. My adhd dd ( very quiet) couldn’t deal with rigid teachers. It eventually caused her to drop out of A levels.

I was like this as a teen, although it showed up as quiet disdain and not doing any work for the subject as opposed to being disruptive.

It won’t change. I’m still selective in who I have respect for. It has protected me from abusive partners, abusive bosses and toxic friendships. The only people in my life are kind, trustworthy and fair. Zero regrets!

Surely this is common across most people.

Fairly standard thing. When a subject didn't interest, and it wasn't necessarily to do with the teacher, you concentrated less well, did less work, and were far more likely to mess about/encourage mess about.
Or if you knew you could mess about and not get into trouble, then far more likely to slack off or be silly than the teacher who is strict.

We had the most boring biology teacher. He really was dry. A typical lesson might consist of him handing us a sheet of information - handwritten and photocopied in lovely purple ink, and the handwriting was hard to read too. And then answering questions in the book. We never dared even yawn because of his reaction.
Our lovely physics teacher was far more slack. I remember the time he said in frustration "if you don't start behaving, then I'll have to give you lines" and one bright spark piped up "we're enjoying ourselves, just give us the lines." He did. We had to write out five times "I will behave in class" - which we promptly did over the lesson instead of the work he'd set and handed in cheekily at the end.
But he was really interesting, lots of great stories, and a really kind chap - and most of us chose to continue physics for A-levels, and not biology.
We started concentrating after some rather dire mock results where he told us that we needed to work if we wanted to continue with Physics, and the results were then better than biology.

It is human nature to concentrate better if something interests them or there is a reason why you need to know it. You see it in adults too. It doesn't have to be ADHD or anything like that - simply that they see an opening not to work and a good majority of people won't bother.

Both of my DCs are similar to this, it’s really frustrating.
My older one is now in yr11 and his behaviour is great. I assume because he dropped the subjects that he had no interest in plus he’s been lucky enough to have a great set of teachers that he likes and respects.
The younger one is more defiant and is still doing subjects he really doesn’t like. He’s also really bright so I suspect he gets bored too. At the moment we’re just monitoring him, of course I’m making it clear that good behaviour is an expectation. But I’m hopeful after seeing that all turned out well for my older one in the end!

It’s also a teen thing. Some kids are just rude to teachers if they’re bored and the teacher isn’t great - it’s very common behaviour in teens. Not OK behaviour though

Going through all your messages (and not ruling out ADD) and having slept on it, that's the thought I had this morning. I'm now wondering if the problem doesn't lie more with certain teachers than DS per say.
If that's the case, how do we approach this with the school? 😱

DS is not defiant or rude. He fidgets, a lot. And it is worse in some lessons and the teachers don't like it. There's the odd more rude behaviour but that's not subject teacher related.

So you’re ignoring the school’s advice? Who will have seen lots of kids like this.

But it’s easier to blame the teachers. Who have to up their game to be more entertaining?

This all sounds quite normal at his age. So far the thread has come up with a diagnosis and suggested medication. There has also been a bit of - it must be too easy, he is bored, weak teaching.
How about he's finding his feet, he's a bit disrespectful, he's not giving his best....
I would talk to the school, find out the problem lessons, keep an eye on his classwork and homework - work with him to get it to the right standard. Let him know you are onto him.

Your first post says he chooses which lessons to behave in, plays up and distracts others which is quite defiant and rude. However I do think that’s quite usual for many teens when in a boring lesson.

How the world has changed. A teen who disrespects teachers and plays up in class needs a diagnosis or it’s the teacher’s fault …. Can’t imagine why there’s an exodus of the teaching profession and why so many parents are on Mumsnet asking for help with their rude and stroppy teen.

Track the classes - all women teachers he isn’t having issues with? Or young teachers? Or those less skilled at behaviour management? Or those less skilled at relationship building? or the male staff?

There is usually a pattern and it hints at the solution. Get into school and have some face to face meetings. Raise the stakes in a supportive not punitive way.

I’m afraid we had this, also in Yr9, also a perfect storm of DS being with his similarly minded friends in the ‘boring’ classes and I can only imagine they were a right pain messing about, there for a ‘social’ instead of learning, it seemed to be in lessons like Drama, Art, Computer Science etc, it was a long year with umpteen talkings to, removal of privileges etc.

If it’s any consolation DS is now in Yr10, has grown up a bit and dropped all ‘those’ lessons, the what seemed like every day disruptive behaviour points have reduced to almost nil.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow It’s a prep school! Of course they don’t see a lot like this. The most difficult to manage would have been filtered out before y7. These schools often have no idea about dc who fidget or lose concentration. Often they have poor lesson planning and don’t look at different styles of learning. I rather suspect a common theme might appear when op
looks at the teachers and the lessons. I’d bet they aren’t dynamic or engaging teachers.

@Blablaboom I’m not sure how you raise this with the school. They might be very defensive and who is going to monitor the teaching quality? Possibly no one. When ofsted are likely to arrive, state school heads very much know where the weak links are and will have tried various strategies to improve teaching quality and learning. No such pressure in many preps and most compliant dc will be fine. I’d don a hard hat and see his personal tutor. I’d make sure you know why dc is fidgeting - is he bored or is the work too difficult and he feels left behind? Most dc respond well to a lesson thats well paced and the teacher is checking that learning is happening. Would you be able to see the teachers who give him detentions? Do they follow the discipline policy? Are they fair in the circumstances? I’m not sure private schools really want this conversation but they are taking your money and did keep him after y6.

Thanks for all the pointers Mumsnetters. Very helpful as usual (minus the trolls). Will digest it all and talk to DH and then we'll decide what course of action to take. 👋

Stick to the mantra - the decisions you make about your behaviour now can impact your future. It helped that I knew she had a career plan already mapped out which very much involved doing well in this subject.

Teacher (History Head of Dept) here - but I work in a deprived area.

Y9 is when we often see a lot of disengagement. Kids who know they're going to drop some of the none core subjects when they do their options totally can't be arsed to get their head down and get on with it. From their perspective, what's the point?

^^ Which is why any teacher worth their salt saves the best til last. We do units on WW2 and Jack the Ripper in Y9. Kids are genuinely interested - also relevant for GCSE.

Also, the data doesn't lie. Maybe ask the school whether the lessons he's getting sanctioned for are the lessons other kids are getting sanctioned for. This would reveal whether it's a 'him' thing or a 'them' thing. Alongside this, it might be that he doesn't respond well to certain forms of command language. Whether or not he's got ADHD, some lads when they get to Y9 don't really thrive on threats and ultimatums from teachers. Staff who are used to their word being law can end up really alienating the kids in front of them. Thing to remember is that the teacher is the adult in the room and they should be helping their learners by encouraging co-regulation not conflict.

@ProudCat DC has just started secondary on his prep, so y7? Not sure he’s dropping anything yet. Even if he’s y8 he’s not dropping a subject yet.

I live with several diagnosed DC/Husband with ADHD
Whilst they all present differently they all do very well when they follow their interest but god help us if they have to do something they have no interest or will to do. Sometime it manifests into opposition behaviour, something procrastination sometimes anxiety.

What you are describing is typical of ADHD I would follow the teachers advice
if you take a look at the SEN conversations on Mumsnet you will see that most families are not supported by schools to seek diagnosis, yours is either very obvious presentation or your school is absolutely up to date and wonderful.
also consider that if you or your husband had adhd (it’s genetic, in short) you may not be able to recognize it as this is your normality too.

have a think about what his friendships look like, any impulsivity (eating out of boredom or in a dystegulated manner, food, spending), any allergies ?
how are his emotions ?

it is in fact an ADHD thing for many, a very generous half of children diagnosed with have defiant/oppositional. dysregulation is at the core of ADHD that's where it comes from. A dysregulated child can act all sorts of ways.

er….. absolutely standard for everyone to like some subjects and not others. You can’t armchair diagnose a child from the information given. Maybe he’s got ADHD, maybe he’s just disrespectful.

Yeah, but as a teacher l saw loads of kids underperform in subjects, but the majority weren’t rude.

All my family are ADHd by the way. I kind of recognise stuff…..