GCSE english lit - how important?

[babylone]

Please help me settle this with my child.
Predicted grades in top 8 subjects would be between 7-8-9s with 9s in maths and triple science.
english lang predicted a 7
english lit a 3

is it possible to fail english lit and still go on a very competitive- science heavy - 6th form?
or do you need a pass (5?) in english lit for competitive 6th form.
my child is planning to take maths, further maths, chemistry and biology for A level.

my question is should i agree to let him fail English lit lit or should i push for a 5?
thanks alot

We had this last year with my DS. He was predicted 7,8,9's with Eng Lit being a 5. When speaking to the 6th form about it because DS was concerned and they explained that when talking about 5 or above in English they are looking at Eng Lang marks and not Lit. It may only be looked at if they were looking at doing A level Eng Lit. He doing Maths, Computer Science and Physics for A level.

Thank you all - this has been very useful. I have shared some of your answers with him. We also had a useful
coversation with DS1 who had 8s in both english lit and lang last year despite starting revising only at Easter! (Oh these boys, they drive me mad!!)
DS2 is considering doing some work to get a 5, which would be a strong pass. He is on the pathway for ASD assessment and some of the rigidity around this may stem from his suspected neurodiversity - likewise the difficulties about inferring emotions/intents when not explicit has always been a bit challenging for him and may be linked to Asd.

Well you’re best off talking to the 6th form to be sure but some people are just better at maths/science so just a 6/7 in English language should be fine if wanting to take science A levels.
I would be concerned as to why the English lit is so much lower though, is he just not bothered with doing the reading? Have you talked to his teacher? He should be capable of at least a 5 in it if he can get a 7 in language so in an ideal world he would aim for a 5 in it rather than plan to fail.

It doesn't sound like it will be a problem based on the sixth form entry criteria you say he needs. DS sixth form college had a points system as well as minimum grade requirements in the subject area of A Level study. I think a 3 in anything might have risked not getting enough points if there were any 6s or 7s in the mix.

English Lit and History are the top traditional essay style subjects that mark out skills development in this area. It's possible some very competitive sixth forms would be looking at the overall choices of GCSE subjects if one core subject was weak. At DSs secondary the last options layers included Art, Drama, Product Design, Business, Computer Science, Economics, Music, Food Tech. So the subjects considered more academic there would be Music, Computer Science, Economics. I personally think that sort of judgement call is ridiculous because Art and Drama clearly require latent talent/aptitude at a whole other level.

You can learn how to answer English Lit questions, without being skilled at inference etc. My DS has a 9 in his Lit and a 6 in his Language for this reason. He didn’t even read the Lit texts. Even dyslexic DD has an 8 in Lit and a 7 in Language.

It basically says I won't apply myself to stuff I am not interested in despite being capable of a higher grade in English Language which is more difficult as you cannot just learn what to write as you can with standard responses to English Lit texts. It is known as a spiky profile. Would he apply himself to modules he doesn't like in future for his A level subjects?

That grade cannot be ignored, he has to declare all GCSE grades so his sixth form will have that, his UCAS and any job application. I think these are the things I would point out to him. It may or may not ever matter to whoever is looking at it but I would imply it does just so he can pull it up to a pass or above before May/June.

I also hate the whole stereotyping boys as not bothered, my own son really worked hard to achieve a high grade in a subject he hated.

@pucelleauxblanchesmains A 4 is a low grade C and a 5 is a high grade C.

My ds managed an 8 in lit.and he barely reads. We watched some of the films and plays to get an idea of the plot and characters and he got AI to help him write some practice answers. By Language was the killer for him (g5). I don't believe eng lit matters for science a levels though.

@babylone It called my attention your comment regarding “inferring emotions and intent”, if this is the root cause, I understand your point and it may be related to neurodiversity as you mentioned. This may not be an issue for these exams, but for the future he’s aspiring to have. I’d recommend him to adopt scientific mindset around language and vocabulary, to dissect the meaning of the texts, ask questions about what may mean and try to look at them from different angles. His brain has been modelled to shine in the things he enjoys, however exploring new areas would help us become more whole persons. In my opinion you have great tutors, the question is who can you trust? And at the other hand, they will most of the time ask him to work on vocabulary. It is time consuming but worth dissecting the texts. Wish you and him all the success! 💪

I hard agree that it would be useful for him to tackle a subject he doesn’t enjoy as good practice for RL. I had to do biology O level and was not keen but I worked and got a good grade.

If he may be ND tho that could explain some of the issues (tho I do know a number of people who are ND who went a long way with Eng lit). Rest assured, as @angelcake20 says, he can get a grade 5 or even higher with a good working knowledge of themes and story and character and a few learned quotes, without needing to go too far into inference and “what the author meant here”. In any case with the Eng lit texts that sort of thing can be learned (Shakespeare uses the phrase xxx bc yyy).

I actually think Eng lang with unseen texts can be more challenging in this way – “How does the author use language to evoke abc?” not easy, and not possible to learn in advance in the same way (I mean you can learn the terms and practise the skills but you don't know what will come up; whereas you can learn details about the theme of violence/supernatural/character of Macbeth/character of Lady M).

I wonder also if as he is clearly a higher achiever, his teachers are expecting great things and thus focusing too much on the top-end skills here that would gain you an 8/9. Eng lit and lang are not tiered (grr) so the lower grades are aimed at less academic students or those for whom this subject is more of a struggle; for them as I say the factual knowledge of story and themes will be enough to gain a grade 5. Suggest he tries to focus on that and doesn’t worry too much about the inaccessible (for him) aspects – he may find his grades jump up.

A full GCSE (at grade 4+) is a level 2 qualification of 120hours+ study time.

You can also do Level 2 qualifications that don't take as long but are the same academic level, such as the Higher Project Qualification which is generally considered to be "half a GCSE". Silver Arts Award is another common one - an official Level 2 qualification, but much less than 120 hours to complete.
Then you also get Level 2 qualifications such as Functional Skills, which are sometimes not seen as "full" compared to their GCSE equivalent because they cover a narrower syllabus with some GCSE topics left out.

Each of English Language and English Literature is a full GCSE by itself.

@clary@WorkinMumsince4ever thanks a lot -it is helpful
His english teacher sent us a very long email and she is very supportive - she is going to set him some short pieces if work to help him build his confidence. He has agreed to do some work to get a 5 and thats what we are going to put on his 6th form application. Teacher said he is able to get a 7 but i dont want to fight that battle and i’ll be happy with a 5. All his other mocks results were great. He does geography and economics so he knows how to write!
thanks all for your advice, ive learnt a lot 😊

Back in the distant days when dinosaurs ruled the earth and we took O levels and CSEs, only the top sets took English literature and everyone else took English language only. However, English literature O level was significantly more demanding than GCSE English literature so a young person who is doing well at every other subject should be able to pass the subject these days as long as they put in the work even if they dislike or are not particularly strong in it.

I think that's a good idea, you won't regret it.

If it doesn't work out then I rightly or wrongly assume from your written style that you have recent heritage in the subcontinent, if true he might be able to lean into that to come extent when crafting an excuse/explanation for the one poor grade.

Either way, a background involving lots of reading decent fiction for pleasure is a huge asset to anyone aspiring to any kind of managerial or professional role.

@puffyisgood im not sure that would be a good excuse but certainly it is an asset: he had a 9 in his French Gcse last year (a year early)

If you're going to study a science I don't think it matters. If they get a high grade for language it's clear they can read and write properly, just that they might not have a great flair for creative writing or absorbing literature.

Creative writing is Eng lang not lit @BillieWiper

That’s why we are saying it’s possible to learn what you need for Eng lit - apart from the unseen poem it’s totally based on four discrete texts (I am counting the poetry as one haha)

Is it, oh sorry. I thought it was part of lit. It was thirty years plus ago I did it!

@babylone I hope you don't mind me asking - how did it all pan out for your DS last year? Your post above, about finding inference difficult due to neurodiversity, really struck a chord with me. DC is very hard working but just struggles to access that 'deeper level' in texts and so finds English Literature a particular challenge. Crossing everything!

@BadSkiingMum my OP was only in december so my son is still in Y11 and still stubbornly avoiding english lit…

Oh whoops, sorry. Thought you were the year above. The very best of luck to them both!

The only point I would make - although this is second hand info - but an RG Uni professor told a family member that they may find they have two students with identical a level results, and if it comes to a choice then they also look at GCSE results across the board, because it gives a picture about commitment and conscientiousness.

A penis doesn't make them incapable of recognising simile and personification.

He can do it. He just needs to choose to not do terribly in it.