UK Supreme Court rules religious education in Northern Ireland is indoctrination

[CForCake]

Religious education in Northern Ireland is different from other parts of the UK. The Curriculum is almost entirely about Christianity, with only a few bits and pieces about other faiths in secondary school.

The Core Syllabus (from the NI dep. of education) starts with: "The revelation of God" https://www.education-ni.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/de/religious-education-core-syllabus-english-version.pdf

The UK Supreme Court has now ruled that this is unlawful and discriminatory.

The details of the case are on the UK Supreme Court website: https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2024-0095#case-summary
including a press summary.

JR87’s parents did not wish her to be taught that Christianity was an absolute truth. Her father, “G”, challenged the legality of the religious education and collective worship and sought judicial review against the Department of Education

in JR87’s school religious education and collective worship were not conveyed in an objective, critical, and pluralistic manner

The family had the right to withdraw the child, but this "placed an undue burden on parents"

Note that the family didn't object to the kid learning about Christianity - they just didn't want it taught as an absolute truth.

Humanists UK thinks this should trigger a rethink of religious education in the whole of the UK. In England it is rarely indoctrination like it is in NI (AFAIK), but England retains an anachronistic requirement for collective Christian worship (which many schools, in practice, ignore)

Sky News also reported the judgement

The BBC adds more colour:

• The controversy began when the girl came home from class and began to recite prayers before meals, telling her family she had learned to do so in school
• When the parents queried the child's RE provision with the school, staff replied they were just following Northern Ireland's Bible-based, Christian-focused curriculum
• The girl and her father subsequently took legal action, concerned that pupils in Northern Ireland were being taught to assume that Christianity was "an absolute truth"
• The court heard the girl's family "strongly support" the provision of religious education, "provided it does not amount to indoctrination"
• All families have the right to withdraw children from RE lessons and worship, but the girl's parents did not do so, fearing it could lead to bullying or stigmatisation

I am very familiar with the sectarian education landscape of NI. I am also familiar with the burgeoning integrated education landscape there, where friends and relatives of mine have sent their children. Some others have sent their children to RC schools.

'Collective worship of a broadly Christian nature' differs from the teaching of a specific religion and corporate worship. Schools in the UK are permitted to basically make it up as they go along when it comes to 'collective worship'. As such, they can sometimes reflect the wishes and values of the communities they serve, or they can ignore the wishes and values of the communities they serve if the school leadership swerves into religiosity or away from it. The various pieces of recent legislation were written by wimps who thought it would be possible to kick the can down the road indefinitely.

The issue of the 'broadly Christian nature' is a looming battleground that already has Kulturkampf written all over it. For most people, religion itself is a yawn-inducing topic, but it is a matter that some opportunistic politicians and pundits have seized as an element of national culture, with debate occurring in the context of the broader fascist position of 'replacement theory'.

In NI, this approaching shitstorm is complicated by questions of national identity that are associated with two main Christian strands, Reformed (protestant) Christianity and Post Reformation Catholicism. As noted by a pp, Ireland has broadly settled this sort of question, with the question of causation or correlation with the loosening of religious control over schools up for grabs - there are many other factors at play, and religious control over the select few schools that consistently produce top applicants to universities and on up the pipeline to influential professional bodies hasn't coincided with an uptick in RC influence on social issues. The DUP and UUP are closely aligned with US fundamentalist 'Christian nationalism' - they are probably the original 'Christian nationalists' - and have always had a militant 'all or nothing' approach to achieving their ends, basically the establishment of a theocracy. They are as opposed to secularism as they are opposed to Catholicism.

As in the US, fundamentalist (protestant) Christianity is the up and coming force in religious observance and in the public square in the UK. It has always been the main strand of protestant Christianity in NI (the DUP and UUP were the two parties opposed to legislation on integrated schools) and it heavily influenced the politics and wider culture of NI from its inception, including the exclusion of Catholics/ nationalists from meaningful participation in representative government at all levels (which is why the RC church insisted on keeping control over its own 'maintained' school system there). Identity politics still dominates the public discourse in NI regardless of the Good Friday Agreement and efforts to dismantle entrenched positions and promote cooperation. The identities go well beyond religious affiliation, which can often be completely nominal.

Fwiw, I agree with the contention of@RedTagAlanthat there are plenty of churches to attend for people who are motivated to do so. I sent my own DCs to an RC elementary school in the US and then on to the local state high school, where the history of religion worldwide was covered in the history curriculum. Friends of mine who sent their children to public schools all the way through sent them to religion classes and sacramental prep that were run by the parish. I paid tuition for my DCs in school, and my friends paid for evening or Sunday religion and sacramental prep classes for their DCs. Money where your mouth is, and all that. I was happy for my property taxes to go toward excellent local state schools and also pay for school for my DCs. I think separation of church and state is a very good thing for churches as well as education. But I do not think religion per se is the problem.

The Republic of Ireland. or Eire in Irish. Take your pick.

Ireland, Éire or the Republic? Official files show debate over name of the State – The Irish Times

Yup, names on the Island of Ireland can be a sensitive subject. Head up to Ulster, or Northern Ireland, and try to work out Londonderry, or Derry.

And it was about bullying ? Nah. From the Sky news link the OP posted:

"Her parents wrote a letter to the school about their concerns that their daughter's education did not appear to conform with their own religious and philosophical convictions."

I see no mention of bullying.

What a shame IMHO, throwing away such great teachings and heritage for inferior culture with poor outcomes.

What "great teachings" ?

What "inferior culture" ?

Poorer outcomes ?

I know what heritage is. Steam locomotives, Beamish Museum etc.

Thanks for the agreement in your post.

You use this word in your post. "Kulturkampf". Culture struggle.

From my position, this struggle, or "the culture war", is being led by the conservative right.

In general, left wing, non-political, and many centrists, are fine with the evolution of culture. We recognise the wrongs done to people. And when the wronged people speak out, we say "yup, good point, We should not do that anymore".

But it's the right who invented this culture war. Especially US evangelicals, who don't want change. They invented " the war on Christmas", and this was trumpeted by the likes of Fox. There is no "war on Christmas". It's just that society as a whole is trending to be more secular. Less religious, and more accepting of others overall.

This court judgement is superb. It could play a big part in releasing people from the oppression of religion, and let us, and more importantly, future generations, allow for the organic evolution of society. By organic, I mean not forced of course.

We have seen how religion has held humanity back. so lets see how we get on with less religious indoctrination of kids at school.

The right view people as induvidual economic units, I think that is an inferior culture.

The left view people as individual or communities of identities, I think that is an inferior culture.

Christianity viewed you as a wife and mother, a family, and English woman.

Let's look at just outcomes of the new culture. By all means crack on with the non-chrsitian culture, it's your free will to follow your will.

1 misery and poverty

https://www.businessinsider.com/uk-second-most-miserable-country-in-world-report-2024-3

2 self hate/genocide

Abortions have increased, apparently 6/10 are due to poverty. 28% of gen Z has been aborted and the numbers are increasing, in the younger age group now 48% of pregnancies end in abortion and apparently in Scotland it will be upto birth and girls will be aborted.

Let's look at what happens to cultures when girls are aborted as Scotland wants as a culture, INCEL rejects who travel further a field looking for someone to stick their penis into.

www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/world/too-many-men/

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northern-ireland/christianity-deserves-priority-in-schools-over-other-religions-bishops-says-KSGO6OFY7ZHQTM3VJLZJGP325A/

This is one opinion, as I said you crack on with your culture, behaviour and outcomes.

“Those who seek to have Christianity sidelined in our shared society are cutting off their noses to spite their face. The very values and principles on which they base their case are rooted in western civilisation which owes a great debt to the teachings of Christianity.”

Eph 5:22-24
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

1 Tim 2:12-14
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear how Christianity views women.

Well, that reply knocked me off balance a bit. How do I respond ?

Can we put left and right aside first ? There are Christians across the political spectrum.

This bit you said: "Christianity viewed you as a wife and mother, a family, and English woman."

I honestly don't know. Are you saying a male led theocracy that keeps women " in their place" is good ? If that's your preference, fair enough.

Your other posts, with links, are maybe easier for me to respond to.

The Business insider link. That references a mental health wellbeing report by Sapienlabs. Not " miserableness".

Looking at the table on page 15 of the full report, with the data combined, there are both full theocracies (Islamic) and full secular nations above the UK. I think Vatican city is the only full Christian theocratic state and that is not included. Argentina, official religion RC, is just a few places above France which is officially secular. France is well above Ireland, etc

And a word search of the full report shows that the word " religion" does not appear once.

There is no correlation .or connection. between anything in that report and religion. Certainly not stated.

Do you agree with that quick review of the report you linked ?

You then say, quote :

" self hate/genocide

Abortions have increased, apparently 6/10 are due to poverty. 28% of gen Z has been aborted and the numbers are increasing, in the younger age group now 48% of pregnancies end in abortion and apparently in Scotland it will be upto birth and girls will be aborted.
Let's look at what happens to cultures when girls are aborted as Scotland wants as a culture, INCEL rejects who travel further a field looking for someone to stick their penis into."

Taking the main parts.

Self hate/ genocide. I have no idea what this means. Are they linked ?

Abortion: How is that connected to teaching Christianity in Schools ?

This Scotsman article says abortion numbers are being driven by cost of living. Another article I found, from STV, gives more data, and it does appear to be economic factors at play, not Christianity, or lack of.

Why are abortion numbers rising in Scotland? (scotsman.com)

Number of abortions in Scotland rises to record high in 2024 | STV News

You linked to a WAPO article about gender imbalance in India and China. That has nothing do with abortion in Scotland. That's a cultural issue. A preference for boys over girls. It's well documented. It's a common feature of traditionally agrarian societies. It's also something I have first hand experience of, DD being Chinese.

I am Scottish, and I am not aware of this being a thing in Scotland. China yes, Scotland no.

"INCEL rejects who travel further a field looking for someone to stick their penis into."

I have no idea what this means. Are you saying rape increases when Christianity drops ?

Do you have data on that?

The final link you posted. The RC Bishop saying what he says. Well he would say that wouldn't he. It is his job to say that.

Edit, I forgot this. It is well documented that secular states outperform religious states on pretty much every metric.

Secular Societies Fare Better Than Religious Societies | Psychology Today

Also 1 Co 14:34-35.

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Technically, Christian women should not be talking religion on the internet. I think ?

But I am not Christian, so matters not to me.

The Anglica church (do random Bible quotes like that and being your own Pope that are protesters behaviour) is finished. The Supreme Court ruling, the way the CoE carries on as do the Riyal family, like Pagans, Kate (I have no bad feelings towards her) did not thank God she thanked Mother nature for her cancer recovery, is hopeless.

Now if you want to go through the Cathecism and deposit of faith then post about that, I would be interested in your views then.

apparently in Scotland it will be upto birth and girls will be aborted.
Let's look at what happens to cultures when girls are aborted as Scotland wants as a culture

An utter mangling and wilful misrepresentation of what is actually happening.

Protests are misogynistic and some figured that out, as is the father of lies a woman hater, they don't like women as many belive she is the one who birthed the man God and will be involved in some head crushing. Nobody demands you believe that, that's what our country was initially based upon.

I went off feminism as I realised it hurt women, pushing Only fans, donating gamates , taking on men who like to dress up/travel without documents as your child to emotionally care for and financially support as an economic unit for the state/private company instead of investing in a family. Women make different choices in life, some cheer on the end of Christianity and will justify their bias and they are free to do that.

If you can live a better way great. The post Christian atheist countries are a mess, full on communist countries aren't great nor are Hindu, Muslim and so forth type countries.

So no reply to any of the rebuttals I made to your previous post ?

Just ignore all that, jump to something else.

Lets try this bit you said. Quote : "I The post Christian atheist countries are a mess, full on communist countries aren't great nor are Hindu, Muslim and so forth type countries."

Can you give an example of a Christian country that is great, as per whatever metrics it is you use ?

I couldnt agree with you more. I am agnostic and have sent my wee one to a non-denominational school (Scotland) and she still comes home talking about jesus and god.
It is definately time for secular schools here and if parents so want to indoctrinate their kids then they can do it on there own time not funded by us, the taxpayer.

Ffs, where in Scotland is abortion based on gender happening? 😂

Correct, it's based on sex.

care.org.uk/news/2025/11/report-recommends-abortion-up-to-birth-in-scotland-including-sex-selective-abortion

It is not based on sex at all.

One of two things is happening here.

Either you simply do not understand the practicalities of how, precisely, abortion is permitted and comes about in Scotland, or you do, and you are wilfully misrepresenting the truth to fit your own agenda.

Which is it?

It also appears @YouGuessSo does not understand the difference between suggestions and actual law.

Are you seriously suggesting that I should ignore the New Testament when considering Christian values? Wow. That's a first.

Christianity in NI and beyond does not view women as English.🤣🤣🤣

What sort of a head melter would?🙈

Well spotted. That is rather amusing.

"Women in Northern Ireland abandoning the Christian faith due to excess jellied eels and compulsory Morris Dancing...."

@YouGuessSo “Those who seek to have Christianity sidelined in our shared society are cutting off their noses to spite their face. The very values and principles on which they base their case are rooted in western civilisation which owes a great debt to the teachings of Christianity.”

Would you agree that opposition to slavery is a fundamental Western value? Yes, right?
Well, how come, then, did it take ca. 1800 years for the British Empire to abolish it?
And how come those who wanted to keep slavery were also... Christians?

And how come slavery was abolished after the Enlightenment? Just an irrelevant coincidence? How odd!!
But, wait, odd coincidences do not end there. It also happened to be abolished just when the need for slave labour was reducing, and the slave trade was becoming less profitable! Another amazing, but surely irrelevant, coincidence, right?

Let's see, what other modern values do we hold as fundamental?
Democracy, right?
Is there any mention of democracy in the Bible?
How long did it take for democracy to become established in the West?

Christianity has existed for ca. 2000 years. Of these 2000 years, how many were with slavery and with no democracy?

Yes, please do tell me more about Christianity and our values...

I think eventually there will be no faith schools allowed.

Either it is fine to have children segregated by faiths and following the doctrine of one at school, or it isn't.

It must apply to all faiths or none.