Why is there such a big difference between English GCSE results and all other subjects

[Cobwebs5]

This is a super selective grammar. Good results for sure. What do you think of the English results ? I have a feeling that this pattern isn’t specific to this school. What is so different about English ? I have a friend whose daughter got 9 grades 9’s and a 6 in English language.

My DD goes to a very selective independent school and they have a similar dip around English, particularly Language at 26% 9s, Literature is a bit better at about 50% 9s. But sciences are more like 66%. I'd guess they've got getting on for 50% of pupils with English as a second language, and they seem to dominate the higher sets in maths and science. Maybe it is something to do with that. Lots of the other independent schools in the area opt for IGCSEs in English. I think because they get better grades.

Is it a boys' school? Girls get the lion's share of top grades in English at GCSE.

I asked ChatGPT (so take with a pinch of salt...):

"Here are the most recent figures (from 2024 JCQ results in England):

• English Language (GCSE, 2024):
• Grade 9: 7.8% of girls vs 4.6% of boys
• Grade 7 or above: 31.4% of girls vs 20.2% of boys
• English Literature (GCSE, 2024):
• Grade 9: 9.4% of girls vs 5.3% of boys
• Grade 7 or above: 35.4% of girls vs 23.1% of boys"

Googled Latymer as a more "normal" grammar and yes, they have similar dips in Eng/Lit and physics even though not as deep.

It's the number of 5s or even 4s that is surprising, these are not adequate grades for a super selective intake.

Anyway, I wouldn't say there is discrepancy between Eng and everything else in OP. Sciences and Spanish show roughly the same distribution. I'd say Chem is even worse as they have nine 4s that cannot be explained by health, bereavement etc.

It's really interesting isn't it?

It's not what I expected to see.

It does back up what I've heard about extra lessons in English at two schools though, given these are good schools and one is a grammar.

Phonics lessons at a grammar school isn't something I'd have ever considered.

It says something significant about the testing though and how it's missing some crucial. The entry scores needed are really high, higher than they've been in a decade and it's more competitive to get in than it ever has been, yet the GCSE results seem to have crashed.

Perhaps because Maths and Science have tiered papers and English doesn’t?

As a school librarian, I would suggest a significant lack of interest in reading books and instead being online. If I had a pound for all the times I have heard 'i don't like reading,' it would nicely bolster my tiny wage. You need a reading age of 16 to do really well at GCSE and most don't have that.

There is a lot of reading immaturity too with year 8s and 9s very reluctant to move on from primary age books. When asked what type of films they like they look blank. When asked what do they do for entertainment they generally say TikTok.

Exactly.
The average reading age of adults in UK is 11 yrs old. Most stop reading once they leave primary.

We have always encouraged DD to read and now at 13 she is reading Dostoevsky etc. It is no surprise that she is sitting old Eng Lang exam papers and coming out at Grade 5 already.
Her school also has compulsory reading time each week ie for 1 lesson per week the whole school has a lesson dedicated to reading from Yr 7-13.
Reading really is the foundation of it all.

My daughter is glued to her phone. Got 99% in her Nat 5 English. Kids have been failing English long before phones.

As PP have said, this does seem to be quite common in selective schools. I wonder if 11+ tests favour those with greater mathematical ability (I live in an entirely selective county and, whilst the test is meant to be 50% verbal, a lot of that is akin to algebra). There is also a massive focus on maths/STEM in the grammars local to us with English and languages seemingly much lower priority. My DD is looking to move Sixth Form to take English/MFL A levels and apparently is far more likely to get in than if studying Maths/STEM as they are so much more popular.

The majority of children don’t read any more. Their attention spans are absolutely shot due to the amount of time spent online. Success in English Literature is dependent on them being able to read, understand and analyse substantial texts. They also need, crucially, critical thinking skills - they can’t learnt formulaic answers by rote - and AI is destroying critical thinking. Some universities are now having to offer ‘reading resilience’ courses to support their English Literature students (so students who have CHOSEN that degree) in reading long texts.

I would wager that it’s very little to do with the teaching and everything to do with the world children are brought up in today.

Do you know if this is a long standing trend?

Its just, I know from hearing it at lots of governor meetings (5 different schools) that the covid home school stuff was much more successful for maths than english, particularly writing. Parents didnt get what thry were trying to achieve so easily.

I also know that current cohorts right across school ages seem to struggle with writing stamina.

One thing that is difference for maths and english is how much more practice you can do in maths. Its quicker for a teacher to mark and return a paper. English a teacher cant mark the volume of papers. I know one school where they used AI to mark weekly english papers so pupils could do double the practice and thier results improved a lot.

Super selective grammars, if they use 11+ CEN type assessments, definitely select against creatives who don't have strong mathematical logical and deductive reasoning skills. I was really pissed off that when we looked into 11+ even "verbal reasoning" was about logic and pattern. There's nothing that captures linguistic skills. Whereas a brilliant maths/science type who struggles with creativity will get through, a brilliant linguist who struggles with pattern, logic and maths reasoning will not.

I guess a lot of those creatives who were rejected by 11+ might be scoring highly in the writing area.

Of course some kids are all around brilliant, so there are some getting those high grades.

11+ is a flawed selection process like any other. It doesn't genuinely pick "the brightest" - it's a biased system that prizes one type of intelligence over others.

My experience of GCSE English Language and Literature with DD (who ended up with 2 x 8) is that the curriculum appears to have been deliberately designed to put children off reading and literature for life, and it’s all about learning how to take the exam, not actual ability. (Full disclosure: DD has ASD, and is at a private selective school.)

Adding - for further evidence, look at electives. Number of art entries (34) vs computer science (58). They have "super selected" with a stem bias.

Both my dds got much higher grades in literature (9 in one case) than language.
I'm not sure that the language gcse is fit for purpose, tbh.
And its certainly not the case that kids don't read or enjoy books anymore, but the photo prompts, for example, used in the language exam are so odd that I don't see how any kid could score highly. And then there's also the differences in exam marking - AQA have had real issues with quality of exam markers/re marks in recent years

I also think it’s linked to reading. My DCs friends who did well in English language read a lot. We used to read articles and newspapers growing up. Kids don’t read many of those anymore.
If they do, then it’s often online.
I recall reading about studies that show people don’t retain information they read online in the same way they retain from a more tangible print media.

Oh, both at state secondary

Yes, the situation must be really bad if they need phonics in grammars. Covid generations have been harmed for sure, but I cannot understand how they could even pass 11+ for grammars.

GCSE testing and marking can be bonkers too. Our homeschooling friends have to literally rote learn "key words" or whatever they're called and keep telling their DC "use the words! Use the words!!" to maximise grades. I think it's ridiculous (not our friends are being ridiculous but the rotten system that requires THIS for higher grades) and has nothing to do with the actual learning children need in modern times.

a brilliant linguist who struggles with pattern, logic and maths reasoning will not

I would argue that if you can't recognise patterns easily, you would not be a brilliant linguist. Languages, including English, are full of patterns.

My dd who got a 9 in lit has said she will never, ever read poetry again by choice ☹️
Goves gcses have taken any enjoyment out subjects and I also think its why there are no teachers..I wouldn't want to teach such dry, boring stuff, either.
Its now all about learning by rote, key words, paragraph openers and closers, no real engagement with the text or subject.
Such a shame

Both English Lang and Lit are the interpretation of text. There are thousands of permutations to every question response.

Other subjects are fact based - you are either right or you're wrong.
Facts can be rote learnt.
Interpretation can't.

Once upon a time books were celebrated by the working class and you have this massive desire to push education.

There's the infamous lines from the Manic Street Preacher "libraries gave us power" which was a reference to the value mining communities gave to education as a way to improve lives.

To have a book of your own was something your treasured.

Now you look on Rightmove and you can look through so many entries never seeing a bookcase compared to twenty or thirty years ago where it was common. That's not just a move to kindles. It's a growing divide between those who value books and those who do not.

Book sales are still fairly large. It's just fewer people buying more books.

Now kids don't get books for Christmas. They get games.

DD went to a grammar (now in a separate sixth form) and got 9s in everything except Spanish and English language (8)

because the main board had an awful 1st English language paper - only exam DD came out shaken and others were crying. It was universally disliked (online and real life feedback) and she had a 10 point difference between her papers.
that dropped her to an 8 - that probably means quite a few were similar hence the large number of 8s

it was by far the worst paper of the core subjects

My DS got a surprise 9 for eng lang. I am sure it's because they had practiced prewriting a story and changing aspects to match any given prompt.

I suggest you do a search on here for threads on reviews of GCSE results. In particular, English seems to throw up unexpectedly low results,,with lots of able students being predicted and achieving 8/9 in mocks and getting 6s in exams. Lots of parents (who can afford to) are paying the exam board for reviews of the marking. There is definitely more of a subjective value judgment in marking English papers than in other subjects. Personally, I think the curriculum (for instance it’s hardly a ‘modern’ text when it’s written in the 1940s) and marking can only be described as a complete shitshow. A terrible legacy from Mr Gove.