Faith school application: proof of attendance with a senile priest who doesn't take attendance

[CForCake]

One of the state schools we are considering applying to is a faith school.

Applying to that school requires submitting a supplementary information form.
The school will then contact the local priest to confirm attendance.

The admission criteria explicitly state that the school will contact the priest, and that families shouldn't ask the priest to sign any letter nor submit any form.

If I understand correctly, this process is similar if not identical for most faith schools.

Our problem is that the priest is somewhat senile, forgets things and faces, and has always refused to take attendance at mass (like some other priests instead do). So he replies not based on a written log but based on his (hugely unreliable) memory. I'm not exaggerating: when we baptised our younger kid he had a couple of times where he seemed not to remember who we were, and this was a few years ago.

Our questions are: what happens if the school contacts the priest, but the priest forgets to reply or doesn't remember who we are?

• We know a couple of families who attend the same church and whose older kids go to the same school. They said the school didn't contact the priest. So the "checks" are made on a random sample, not on all applicants?
• What happens if the school contacts the priest and he forgets to reply? Do we lose the place? Does the school contact us so we have an option to chase the priest?
• What if the priest replies that he doesn't remember us? He does not keep any official register of attendance so there is no official record. Would we lose the place? Would we be automatically considered for a non-faith place?

This school would not be our top choice. Maybe we are being a bit paranoid, but the maximum distance for all the other schools has narrowed over the last few years, so we are a bit worried now.

Thanks!

Talk to someone at church next time you are there. It won’t be only the priest- maybe a warden, or administrator. Ask them how it’s done. Tell them you’ll be needing their confirmation of attendance.
I’m more familiar with CofE, but I’d be surprised if there’s no support staff, even if voluntary, given the priest’s declining health.

When we were in this situation (a few years ago now) I semi-forced records to be kept because I made a gift-aided donation to the church collection manually (ie not by direct debit) every time I attended a service during the qualification period. If the church hadn't given me the reference I would have had financial records showing those donations and the church is legally obliged to keep the Gift Aid records so there would be hard evidence that I made the gifts - although they'd have to take my word for it that every gift corresponded to attending a service. I never had to use this though as the reference happened without a hitch. The school I was applying for required 3 attendances a month for 3 years to qualify for the top category (after SEN&looked after), and 2 attendances for 2 years to be in the next category down. There were certainly quite a few times when I couldn't get to the sunday morning service 3 times in a particular month but I attended an evensong or midweek service in that month - and sometimes those services would be taken by someone other than the main priest for the church. There's no way any priest would reasonably be expected to know for certain that I met the criteria if they weren't keeping records.

I don't blame churches for not doing the admin for schools. It's not their role or responsibility to decide who should qualify for a faith school really. Some churches don't mind, if they see it as a few years of opportunity to reach the heart of someone who is only going through the motions for a school place.

I do think this specific school is being unreasonable in having such a key factor in their admissions policy being unreliable and unauditable, and relying on subjective factors that will vary from church to church. There needs to be a written form so that parents have time to establish that they qualify and so that any issues with a paricular priest's memory can be accommodated as needed. I think you should lodge a complaint to the LA about the problematic nature of the policy @CForCake.

@GameWheelsAlarm I do think this specific school is being unreasonable in having such a key factor in their admissions policy being unreliable and unauditable, and relying on subjective factors that will vary from church to church. There needs to be a written form so that parents have time to establish that they qualify and so that any issues with a paricular priest's memory can be accommodated as needed. I think you should lodge a complaint to the LA about the problematic nature of the policy ^.^

I am not sure I follow.
As far as I know, all faith schools ask the local church to confirm attendance.
I don't think the school is doing anything wrong - what else could they do, other than ask the local church?

The problem is that there is a disconnect between schools, which ask for this data, and churches, which are not happy about the admin burden, and which are inconsistent in logging it.

Neither the schools nor the local authority can force a church to track attendance in a specific way. Maybe the dioceses? Maybe it should come from them as they are the only entity to which both churches and school are accountable?

I mean, in my case, what could the school have done differently?

@CForCake I agree with @GameWheelsAlarm except for this bit: "I think you should lodge a complaint to the LA about the problematic nature of the policy"

Firstly, the LA isn't the admissions authority for this school. It will be the diocese (if a voluntary-aided school) or the academy trust (if an a academy). In either case they are unlikely to listen or agree that the policy is flawed. The correct way to get an admissions policy scrutinised for compliance with the admissions code is via the schools adjudicator here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/school-admissions-arrangements

The code includes a clause about fairness and objectivity and make it clear that parents should understand their chances of getting a place. You could argue that the lack of visibility of the priest's reference makes that more difficult.

However, you've missed the time window for referring their 2026 policy. You'll be able to object to the 2027 policy when it is determined and published (probably in late Feb / early March). The objection window is open until May 15th.

I think they meant it is unreasonable that the process of getting the priest's reference is not visible to the parent. As it isn't visible, we don't really know if it is auditable.

Normally it is the parent's responsibility to get their form signed by the priest. It's unusual for a school to take on this responsibility, so you're right to scrutinise it.

@bubblnsqueek The code includes a clause about fairness and objectivity and make it clear that parents should understand their chances of getting a place. You could argue that the lack of visibility of the priest's reference makes that more difficult.

OK. But the bit I don't get is that the fairness of a policy which requires a church attendance certificate depends on how reliably and fairly or not the church in question logs attendance.

I'm no expert, but can the school force a church to record attendance in a specific way?

@bubblnsqueek I think they meant it is unreasonable that the process of getting the priest's reference is not visible to the parent. As it isn't visible, we don't really know if it is auditable.

Ah, I see, this would make sense. Thank you.

Normally it is the parent's responsibility to get their form signed by the priest. It's unusual for a school to take on this responsibility, so you're right to scrutinise it.

Really? I didn't know. The faith schools in the area all tell you that they will contact the Church

The thing that is unreasonable is the school not having a form that the parents can check the accuracy of. Insisting on it being done in a phonecall means there's no paper trail and no way to challenge an incorrect statement. Ensuring that the process has the correct info needs to be part of what happens before the application deadline - it's not a robust system if you have to wait until the appeals process after offers are made before you can challenge an incorrect statement. Thank you @bubblnsqueek for the extra info about the right way to challenge this.

@GameWheelsAlarm It's done via post, not on a phone call, but I see your point: the process is not transparent because the family applying doesn't know if/when the school contacts the church, and doesn't know what the church tells the school.

Thanks to you and @bubblnsqueek for clarifying these points!

"The faith schools in the area all tell you that they will contact the Church"

@CForCake Do they all have the same admissions authority (which may be the diocese or an academy trust)? That would explain why they are all the same. Maybe they have had problems with parents forging priest's signatures or putting pressure on priests in the past and this is their way of dealing with it. There's nothing wrong with it in principle, but it should be visible to the parent. You don't want to be finding out on offer day that you didn't get the reference.

You said your church is Catholic, but the school is CE. Does the school get many applicants from your church or are you unusual?

I wouldn’t focus on the priest but the welcomers/people who hand out the books etc. Say hello and goodbye every week and get your face known by and build a relationship with them and you can use that with the priest.

We have a register taken at Sunday School which would fulfil this as evidence, but Sunday School is only twice a month. For school admission purposes I’m also keeping a record of when we went.
Could you take a selfie in church before or after the service with a date/time stamp on each time?

Our church (CofE) was between priests for quite a while with locum priests doing the services. They didn't do registers but it was a small church and the church wardens did my form. Talk to the school about what checks they do and then talk to the church about who could sign the form or what the process is.

The faith schools we're looking at require you (the parent) to print and take the form to the Church to fill in and sign. The parent then uploads/sends it in. At least this means the parent has control of the process, which I'm thankful for. Perhaps you can ask the priest close to admissions time if they have been sent anything?

I agree that speaking to the church warden or whoever is the busiest busy-body in the church is a good idea. Just make sure they know you by name and say hello every Sunday. I'm assuming you attend weekly? Also might be worth making sure you are on the parish roll.

I have previously worshipped at a lla e where there was a QR code which you scan then every week it sort if updated and you signed that way, which I liked as it was clear you were being logged.

I would possibly also:

1. Volunteer a lot (I was a hymn book hander outer) so your face is known by the staff.

1. You could take a surreptitious photo every time you go? Then you have time stamped photos for your appeal if needed. It can be if anything in the church.

The diary is also a good idea, you could note the topic of the sermon too.

Why not just apply, and see what happens?