Applying for 6th form / college - have backup options!

[TeenToTwenties]

Please please get your young people to apply for not only Plan A but also Plan B and Plan C.
It is upsetting to see on here each year in August pupils who haven't met their grades for whatever reason then in a panic because they have no backup.

For example:
If plan A needs a grade average of 7 then have a plan B that needs 6 and C that needs 5.5.
If Plan A is A levels because you expect grades 6 then have a plan B of for example a level 3 BTEC / T-Levels.
If plan A is a level 3 vocational course then is there a Level 2 they could do if needed? If not then what would they do?

It is far easier to explore options and apply for them this term than be scrabbling around at the end of August making rash decisions.

Things can go wrong with GCSEs, illness, MH, or just being unlucky and ending up on the wrong side of a load of grade boundaries.

Can I ask for an advice?

My son applied for sixth form and was told he was unsuccessful about 20 hours after. Not invited to interview. By his predicted grades, he does hit the entry requirements (but not by his mock grades so far in some subjects).

Does this mean they are in a breach of admission code? And if so, what do I need to do?

If it is a state school sixth form then yes, they are in breach of the code. Send them a link to this 2022 judgement on the admissions policy for Twyford CE School which makes it clear that it is unlawful to reject applications on the basis of predicted grades: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62d7bf2e8fa8f50c06b95a43/ADA3899_Twyford_Church_of_England_High_School_Ealing_15_July_2022.pdf

At the same time, you can ask for their appeals procedure.

That's very helpful, thank you!

His predicted grades actually do hit the requirements for entry, they stated a mixture of reasons they refuse (actual, predicted grades and mock results) and said they won't give any more feedback.

So what can actually happen? Could he be realistically interview?

Thanks so much for helping!

It sounds like they are making a subjective interpretation of your child's predicted grades based on other contextual information, which is even worse than just basing the rejection on predicted grades.

Are you certain it is a state school sixth form, in an 11-18 school, and not a stand-alone sixth form college? If you pm me the name of the school I'll check their status and policy.

This is the national Admissions Code, which applies to all state school sixth forms: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60ebfeb08fa8f50c76838685/School_admissions_code_2021.pdf

Clause 1.9m makes clear they are not allowed to interview applicants. The most they can do is have a meeting to talk about course options.

Clause 2.32 sets out your right to appeal, as follows...
"Parents, and in some circumstances children, have the right to appeal against an admission authority’s decision to refuse admission. The admission authority must set out the reasons for the decision, that there is a right of appeal and the process for hearing such appeals. The admission authority must establish an independent appeals panel to hear the appeal. The panel will decide whether to uphold or dismiss the appeal. Where a panel upholds the appeal, the school is required to admit the child."

If they are subject to the code, and have breached it, then you have a good chance of winning an appeal.

The question to ask though is what does winning an appeal in practice actually mean?

Child wants to take Maths, Physics and Chem A level. School says fine we'll interview you but all those courses are full so we can offer Geog, English Lit and Chem...

You are better off spending the energy finding a school that is a good fit and match for your child.

If they're unlikely to get the normal grades required for a particular A level, then look at alternatives.

If this a reaction to my post, my child is predicted 7 in math, 6 in physics - both he wants to study and he will likely actually do better than that (he has recently overcame some obstacles so is on an upwards curve).

I think what @OhCrumbsWhereNow meant was, even if you appeal and the school sixth form is forced to accept your DC, it still may say that the chosen subjects are (suddenly, strangely) not available. So it is probably a good plan to have a second option lined up anyway.

As an aside, 7 in maths is on the absolute edge of a strong enough grade to do well in maths A level. And 6 in physics also. Ideally a student would be looking at 7/8 in both those for A level (tho of course your DC may well achieve that).

I would usually say you are right OP. I was really keen to have a plan B in Aug but DD was set on doing quite academic humanities subjects and these are just not offered by either of the two local 6th form colleges. She really didn't want to do a BTEC or T levels. Fortunately after some horrendous pivoting on the spot at school on the day we got a place sorted for her there, but i felt she was disadvantaged by wanting to do languages, History etc. Science/maths/ sociology would have been no problem elsewhere.

When a school local to me started getting similar push-back from rejected applicants then the threat of multiple appeals encouraged them to actually read and understand the Admissions Code. They changed their policy the following year.

Yes, we have other options lined up.

Do not agree with the 7 etc being minimum, I think people mature at different rate. I got Ds in GCSEs (science) and ended up with STEM PhD from a top Uni. So whilst its a great start, there will be people who do really well with lower marks and people who do badly with higher marks. And of course people who do well with great marks. There is of course a correlation but it is more nuanced.

Anyway, my son is academic enough to get good A levels, I would advise him not to go if he wouldn't.

As @ofamuchness has said, please remember that the local authority doesn't administer admissions for Year 12 and 13 and the admissions code only applies to school 6th forms not independent schools or colleges. If you need to appeal then the appeal process doesn't go through the local authority (just toqje sure no one wastes time contacting them to do anything about it) I'm a fair access officer and we get a LOT of enquiries from parents assuming that the fair access protocol applies to Year 12 and 13 as well, it doesn't

Yes. Plus they are putting kids in disadvantaged position. Hopefully, this forces them to reconsider and next year, this will help others.

@AskingForAFriend10 The stats suggest that if taking A level maths with a 6 at GCSE, the most likely outcome is a grade E; with a 7 a D is most likely, and more than 3/4 of students taking A level maths with a grade 7 typically gain a C or below.

A grade C is still worth having of course, but it’s something students should be aware of, as they might have instead taken a different subject with a better chance to gain a higher grade.

So much of maths (like other sciences to some extent, and my subject, MFL) is linear and builds on previous knowledge. If a student is working at a grade 6 GCSE in year 11 then they are probably missing some key building blocks which are needed and often assumed for the A level. It’s great that you did so well after poorer GCSEs, and of course there are always exceptions. But it’s a decent rule of thumb and worth bearing in mind. All the best to your son and hope he does well.

So as I mentioned, I am academically adept and thus able to recognize whether my son is capable academically or not. I have also mentioned he had some circumstances which meant that he only really just now (from Sep onwards) was able to actually focus at school (he is now on meds). He jumped 2-3 grades in all subjects. He has scored very highly on all of the aptitude tests they did at school. So whilst I appreciate your advice, I would expect you would believe my judgement here. I hope this doesn't sound aggressive, but I am really not delusional.

He is not aiming for C. He is catching up and I bet his actual mocks will be much higher.

I do wonder whether it is this sort of attitude that actually contributes to social immobility in the UK (just to clarify, I do not mean you specifically, just the whole system). I come from Europe and the fact that people do change/mature in their attitude to education is more acknowledged.

Plenty of DC don’t knuckle down until after Xmas and plenty more cram from Easter onwards. I cruised yr11 failed my yr13 mocks and got AAB 6 months later

re Maths with a 6 / just a 7.

I think you need 3 things

• the ability
• the work ethic
• the core skills / knowledge

I think if someone has for example been ill (or lazy, or disrupted teaching) and is working at high 6 / low 7 by the time the GCSE exams come around in May/June then, if they want to succeed at A level, they probably need to keep working July & August to get their core skills/knowledge up before they hit the A level course.
Many 6th forms set bridging work and/or give maths tests very early on. If someone needs to play catch up due to their GCSE level (for whatever reason) they would be well served by doing that catch up before A levels start.

@clary is correct though that the stats show otherwise. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule which may well be your academic child who is not showing their progression but Cambridge report is here page 11-14 https://www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/Images/735630-144.-progression-from-gcse-to-a-level-2021-2023.pdf

Thanks for the reminder to fill in for 6th forms, we really need to do it in the next few days. Interesting about the deadlines, my daughter's grammar school definitely closed for external applications a few weeks ago but they do do an exam for external STEM candidates in February, so guess they have to weed them out before that.

@Stowickthevast @clary hopefully you're not suggesting that young people's choices should be dictated by "the stats" even if their own circumstances are atypical.

The stats are not deterministic, so should definitely not be used to quash aspiration. It's ok to mention them, but once per thread is enough.

I disagree. Once per thread is often not enough.
Your situation may be atypical, that's fine, just ignore the posts saying it is a poor idea.

But too many still seem to do A levels (irrespective of subject) when their GCSE grades would indicate that vocational courses would be a better route. Often the vocational route doesn't even seem to have been considered until they start failing y12. We see it on MN every year, kids who wanted to stay at school with friends, or whose parents look down on vocational courses, doing A levels they are unsuited for.

And that is kind of the point of my thread. Look at all the options, have plan Bs and Cs. By looking at plan Bs and Cs you (generally, not you specifically) may find something more suitable than original plan A, and at least if the grades for A aren't reached you are making a considered decision not a rushed one. Also it means if a student starts on Plan A and finds it unsuitable they can potentially jump ship quickly in September/October before it is too late.

The stats are a generalisation. PP's were misusing them to talk down AskingForAFriend10's aspirations for her child. Apologies if I was unclear, but that was the specific context I meant when I said the stats should just be mentioned once - they should not be used to repeatedly hammer down the arguments for specific cases like this. AskingForAFriend10's child has been illegally refused a place at a school on the basis of subjective predicted grades and contextual data that is not mentioned in the admissions policy. Telling them "it doesn't matter because your child is unlikely to make the grade anyway" is unhelpful, and is effectively siding with the school's illegal judgement.

@AskingForAFriend10 no for sure you don’t sound aggressive. And I am sure your DS will improve and do well – as I said before, all the best to him. Obviously things can be different from the overall stats in a specific case.

I don’t agree tho that setting a minimum standard for moving from GCSE to A levels is a barrier to social mobility. I am all in favour of social mobility, but allowing students to do badly at A level is not the way to promote it. And I also don’t agree that mentioning it “once per thread” is enough. As @TeenToTwenties says in an excellent post, every year on MN there are parents whose DC have taken on A levels that are beyond them – DC who would probably have been better suited to a different style of course, but which they have apparently not considered. Btecs can lead to a uni place for sure and should not be looked down on if they suit a YP better.

I was a teacher in school and am also a parent of three DC who have been through this, with their friends; I have seen and heard of numerous examples, in my subject (MFL) and others, especially maths, where unfortunately a student was allowed to continue to A level when it would have been better if they hadn’t, and ended up dropping out or gaining a much lower grade than hoped.

My specific subjects are French and German. There is no scope in the complex and challenging A level course to reteach French verbs or German adjective agreement; that knowledge is assumed at the start of the course. If a candidate were working at a grade 3 at GCSE (equivalent to the D grade you mention), then they clearly would not have the knowledge needed. A levels have been reformed in recent-ish years and are very challenging and a big step up from GCSEs, hence schools and colleges being keen to ensure that the necessary ability, skills and knowledge are there at the start.

Yes if a student as @TeenToTwenties says had had some dramatic reason why they got a 6, not the expected 7 or 8 (major trauma in the middle of their exams for example) I am sure a school would bear that in mind. And yes, gaining an 8 or 9 at GCSE in no way guarantees an A or Astar at A level, I know that well. But it’s a better start with more chance of a positive outcome. A levels are not for everyone and there are other routes that may be more productive for a candidate with lower GCSE grades.

ETA: in no way did I intend to talk down to @AskingForAFriend10 or their hopes for their DC and I apologise that it may have read that way. I just wanted to flag that the stats are there and they are best considered. If a DC improves from a grade 5 to a grade 7 and then gains an 8 in the exam, happy days. Just if a student (any student, not the PP's DC) ends up with a 6 in maths then they may want to reconsider maths A level.
But I hope I have clarified that I am certainly not saying that their DC will not make the grade, and I agree they should pursue the sixth form (if it is part of a school - that's not clear tbh) and make sure it is not breaking the rules. But still - have a plan B as well.

All the 6th forms near us seem to require a 7 to do maths A level and teachers I have spoken to say it’s because the struggle to keep up is too much otherwise. Similarly 6 if not a 7 in physics

Sorry, was a generic response and I picked subjects at random.

More the case that having done battle with schools more times than I care to remember and having watched siblings and friends do the same, often it is better to focus on a range of options than on trying to convince schools to change their minds.

Not that it doesn't happen, but a lot of the time 'success' is unsatisfactory.

I have one DC doing Maths, FM and Physics at A level with 9s at GCSEs. Cannot say she is finding it easy at all, she is still adjusting. Those are very tough A levels. Same applies to languages and Chemistry. Would not be doing any of those without at least an 8 or 9 at GCSE. If the child will actually get a higher grade eventually and is just currently under predicted that is of course a different matter.