Help me parse "school shoes" vs. trainers

[ysette9]

As a new parent newly moved to the UK, I appreciate these forums as a source of advice. My oldest is starting Year 7 and we are parsing the uniform policy. I've never experienced a shoe policy other than "wear something you can safely run and play in", so figuring out what is considered school shoes is a bit mysterious.

I looked at the example images the school provided of acceptable footwear, and it is a collection of horrifyingly ugly and horrifyingly uncomfortable/disfiguring torture devices. I want their feet to be in foot-shaped, flexible, flat shoes to promote balance and proper development. I found these shoes that seem to fit the bill, but my spouse is concerned they look too "trainer-like". Neither of us can determine what a trainer is or is not. I know the decision is ultimately up to the judges at school, but I'd love your collective input to help educate me.

These are the shoes: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/187473076260 I blacked out the edges to make it more subtle. I'll see if I can figure a way to add an attachment to this post with the actual photos.

Which is why I prefer teaching in an FE college rather than a school.

OP

Trainers / training shoes are just that, things you wear when exercising or playing sport. Ironically the same school that demands 'no trainers' for shoes often require them for sport.

I think a PP who mentioned brogues is on the right track.

The school will usually say 'polishable', they are not expecting the child to polish their shoes, what they actually mean is no suede.

@sashh and no canvas.

I am still intrigued that @ysette9 doesn‘t know what trainers are (and not just what will a school class as trainers, which is a very reasonable query and one I am sure most of us have come up against). I can fully understand if they usually call them something else (like a PP I also know the term "runners" for example – I need some new runners etc) but I infer from the OP's posts that they are entirely unfamiliar with the concept of the trainer as a shoe at all. Not meaning to be snidey (it's hard to hear ToV online) but I am genuinely interested.

And I have just seen your update.

Ironically the same school that demands 'no trainers' for shoes often require them for sport

Why is that ironic? Of course trainers are required for sport. It’s normal for different shoes to be worn for different things. I wear different shoes to go to work in than I do to go for a run.

Because all the reasons school specify no trainers (cost, bullying etc) are all still the same in a PE class.

But obviously they need to wear trainers in PE? I’m confused as to what you think they would wear instead?

@RosesAndHellebores

The problem is learning cannot take place if behaviour is out or control.

That happens if rules are not enforced and students think they can do as they please. Just look at some Ofsted reports for inadequate schools to see the consequences.

It is no coincidence that almost all top state schools have strict rules in all areas, including uniform.

Aside from the uniform issue, I cannot understand why anyone would put their DC in a pair of ugly second hand trainers from eBay.

They are absolutely hideous and no one else will be wearing anything like them.

I'm from the US, so our vocabulary is different. "Trainers" don't exist in American. We have "tennis shoes" or running shoes, which are probably the closest to trainers, from what I gather. "Shoes" is an all-encompassing category that includes boots, sports/tennis/running shoes, sandals, heels, flats, clogs, rain boots, etc. "School shoes" is not a concept that exists in the US, so I am asking what appear to be dumb questions as a way to learn both language differences as well as understand cultural expectations.

Ah OK yes so US "running shoes" I think are the closest to trainers in the UK.

Tho trainers now includes the shoes I am wearing today apparently, even though they are certainly not made for running (flat, white leather with a silver star).

I would love a foot specialist to deep dive school shoe policies. Having had a lifetime of foot issues myself and DC’s with their own conditions/size constraints it drives me insane that policies do not account for good foot/general health nor weather conditions or distances walked. I spent many school years writing notes at various times to ensure appropriate for their feet shoes could be worn to avoid further issues.

I hear what you are saying and when my dc were younger, I would have agreed with you. However, dd attended an outstanding and high performing holy grail state secondary with draconian dress codes. Regrettably the dress code expectations did not mirror expectations about behaviour and general conduct and it felt wholly disproportionate. Fortunately, we were able to move DD to an independent school at the end of Y8. Behaviour was much better. Teaching was much better. The environment was 💯more courteous.

Both the DC were at independents. Behaviour and expectations around it were much better and clearer and there were cinsequences. There were uniforms but they were pretty relaxed although nobody really broke the rules - because they were sensible.

I fail to understand why or how enforced scruffy polyester supports Behaviour. We also have a home in France and uniform, Behaviour and performance do not go hand in hand there. Neither do young people travelling to and from school look such a hideous mess.

There is no evidence that the zero tolerance uniform approach to arbitrary uniform rules and draconian punishments helps behaviour or academic performance. Its entirely performant. If there were a causal correlation, we would expect to see UK uniform hard liners racing ahead of their European peers when on the whole Europe outperforms us. The UK is an outlier with its uniform obsession.

I have seen (older) research suggesting that total control environments result in poorer decision making and independence in young adults. I would be interested to see that work repeated after a decade or more of the fad for total control schools which now seems to be receding.

What makes a difference to children’s learning is rules consistently applied and infringements consistently followed up. Zero tolerance for bullying and harrassment can be effective, zero tolerance with draconian punishments for incorrect lace colours in shoes does not.

Anecdotally, the two secondary schools locally which are the highest performing in terms of value add are also the least demanding on uniform whilst both the schools which have hysterics at a shirt button undone or failure to wear a wool blazer in 30C have drifted downward (and one is now reverting to its previous discipline approach).

Trainers = sneakers

Well it depends on the type of PE doesn't it?

I'm not saying they should not wear trainers but where are all the rules about colour / style / cost?

Just bringing another thought to this.
When my DC were tiny, it was the absolute norm to expect that they would move on from dressing smartly and traditionally at school to dressing smartly and traditionally for work. The world of work has now moved on.

DH only dresses up for court nowadays. For other work he usually wears trousers and a jumper, admittedly with a collar and tie and brogues but that's about him. DD's boyfriend, actuary, wears smartish trousers, black jeans if no meetings, a smart casual jacket and an open necked shirt. If he needs a suit, no tie.

I had an in person meeting yesterday. Nobody wore traditional leather shoes. Executive Team - all footwear was for practical comfort. Not a lace up brogue or tie in sight.

Schools need to move on with the world to prepare DC for the real world of work.

Hmm no velcro isn't very SEN friendly.

Hmm, I think that depends on what type of school you go to. My family go to Catholic private schools in the US, they definitely know what a school shoe is.

Well yeah, they obviously don’t need to wear trainers for swimming.

I think of trainers as sneakers for that comparison.

At my DD’s secondary school they have to be black and/or white and so nearly everyone has the same black Nike trainers because they are cheap and light.

'Trainers' are the BrE synonym for AmE 'sneakers'.

Ours have to be white, with non marking soles.

Plimsolls/daps - oh the joy of no cushioning!

Known as guttees in northern Ireland! In olden days we had to do indoor pe in bare feet. A polo shirt and thick knickers.
School shoes were fairly horrible way back when!