Grammar and primary schools

[PK1908]

Hi, this is my first post here- so apologies if I am doing anything wrong.
I am currently looking to buy a house in an area which has grammar school for both boys and girls( I have one son and one daughter), and good primary school for boys, good non selective secondary school, and commutable from london , as both me and my husband are working( too many criteria- I know!!!).
We had finalised Amersham/little Chalfont area and actively looking around there.
Some friends suggested Worcester park- as it can be in catchment of both Tiffin’s girls and nonsuch grammar. I started searching but so confused- as KT4 can be in Sutton or Kingston. How does it work- which non selective schools can I apply for in that case. Many schools show distance criteria, but will council be considered too. Eg. If the postcode lies in Sutton, though distance is less for a school in Kingston, will they be considered?
If not, then is it better to get house in Kingston or Sutton?
Also, what about primary schools.
And lastly- any thoughts on Amersham/little Chalfont vs Worcester park?
sorry for such a long post and queries- ChatGPT failed me so I turned to this trusted forum.

TIA

@Drazzzamba I'm not sure whether the poster you have replied to has a child in Tiffin boys, I doubt it from their comments, I can tell you more if you DM - it is a good school - have a look at their Instagram page - it has a summary of recent results which are outstanding.

@latetothepartyweightlossinjectionsOf course the results are outstanding! Just look at the competition to get in. It’s super super selective. It should be near the top in the uk.

Id still go to Bucks though. Far less of a lottery for a good grammar school and less competition.

@TizerorFizz I'm aware that's it is super selective which is whole different ball game to grammar schools in Bucks.. what is interesting is comments like

'Especially that Tiffin boys maybe has talented kids but apart from that it is not that good school ( unlike Tiffin girls btw)'

With the results like they just got I would say they definitely have talented children, no maybe about it or they have amazing teachers or both.

@latetothepartyweightlossinjections I was assuming the poster was not talking about results. Of course they will be stellar. Inevitable. Maybe she’s found other aspects of the school problematic? Not every high achieving school suits all dc. That’s why coming to Bucks is a lot less stressful and many parents get a choice of grammar. I don’t get the love of dc taking umpteen tests when one will do.

@TizerorFizz agree I’m not particularly in favour of children taking multiple tests at 10 or 11.

I just don’t get how Tiffin boys appears to get a relatively bad reaction on forums like this. And more often than not from people without dc at the school. Could understand if you’ve had a child go through and a bad experience at the school, but that tends not to be the case of what I’ve seen on this forum.

Honestly you really look only at the results? Nothing else matters?

Then if you have such narrow criteria all grammar would be excellent no matter what.

It is easy to run a selective school as the parents and kids do good job. The teaching may be just mediocre, poor pastoral care but the results are good.

For me so much more matters at schools

Yes Tiffin Girls is a good school. Tiffin Boys is average. And honestly as they say very pot praises its own lid. I heard parents praising even not that great schools. Fake it till you make it

@latetothepartyweightlossinjections Some parents will criticise what they cannot have!

@SometimesYouWinSometimesYouLearn It’s not easy to run any school. These super selective schools will have some dc who are pushed very hard by parents. They aren’t always happy dc. Parents expectations are sky high and there’s pressure to keep up standards.

When I was at a grammar, no one cared that much. No league tables snd no inspections. Quite a few teachers were not great. Now every school can have challenges recruiting - especially in areas of high housing costs. However few dc get the best results they can with mediocre teaching and I doubt they have mostly mediocre teaching at Tiffin Boys.

Tiffin was only marked as Good by Ofsted several years ago. And looking by the reasons it was exactly because of the teaching. The excuses Tiffin made after that were rather ridiculous. I do not consider Ofsted reviews as useless. I do not believe parents. As I said I have heard parents praising terrible comprehensives with poor results and pastoral care.
But if somebody wants a child among only children that are high achievers and doesn't mind single gender, likes that children there are representing mostly quite specific background, doesn't rely on teaching then Tiffin is an ideal school for them. :)

@SometimesYouWinSometimesYouLearn From what I’ve observed, at the grammars I do know, the backgrounds of dc are similar because intelligence isn’t evenly spread around dc or their families. To address this there are fsm places with a lower entry mark. In many areas the middle class is the vast majority so you expect to see the middle class at the grammars. Single sex? Why not? Serves dc very well in many ways.

As for Tiffin, I’d be surprised if parents cared much about ofsted. I think one grammar in Bucks is good amongst a sea of outstanding but it’s a fine line and parents never backed off from wanting that school. Understandably as nothing else is anywhere near as good even when true comps are within reach in nearby LAs. Parents make choices and Tiffin boys will never be short of very bright boys.

A 3 year old Ofsted report probably doesn’t reflect current practice so most won’t care for more than a nano-second. It also doesn’t highlight poor or weak teaching. In fact lots of teaching is praised. It highlights where there should be priorities within the curriculum. It identified a sharper focus on priorities for governors. Neither are poor teaching and I suspect the 2 points for improvement are corrected by now.

As someone in the last few weeks of 11+ prep don't do it!

Respectfully, I don't think the school is 'average' by any stretch of the imagination. The Ofsted report you talk about was nearly three years ago, since then they've had a change of head teacher. In addition, that Ofsted report was good and outstanding on several measures
Quality of education:
Good
Behaviour and attitudes:
Outstanding
Personal development:
Outstanding
Leadership and management:
Good
Sixth form provision:
Outstanding

To suggest this is an 'average' school is quite simply ridiculous. As another poster suggested perhaps this is a case of criticising what you can't have - rather than looking at the objective facts of the matter.

Are you a disgruntled teacher who couldn't get a job there - as you seem very critical of the teaching at the school? Have you had a son in the school recently? I doubt it. What is the evidence you have to comment on the quality of the teaching. It seems you are not objective on this matter.

@Bodyshopdewberry

Humbly disagree. It was a hard slog but it was very much worth it for my DDs.

@TizerorFizz

I respect your opinion. From my side, I am absolutely opposed to single-sex schools of any kind, as I believe they tend to produce socially awkward children. In my view, society is made up of both genders, and children’s upbringing should reflect that, preparing them for real life in such a society. That is why my son never sat exams for any single-sex school.

I know parents whose children attend Tiffin, as well as people who have graduated from there. I have also worked with some of them. I have not noticed that they came from particularly intellectual families compared to children from the schools around me here in Richmond Borough. What is characteristic, however, is that the majority of children in Tiffin come from South Asian immigrant families. In those families there is a strong belief that only by attending a grammar school can one achieve success, and “hothousing” is very common.

Personally, I do not agree with the fact that the government allocates less funding per pupil in a grammar school than in a comprehensive. This is unfair, because SEN schools receive separate funds, so that is no justification. Grammar schools then have to struggle with far smaller budgets and are constantly nagging parents to raise money. For many years, Tiffin buildings were neglected, unable to afford proper renovations. They are now gradually refurbishing parts of the school. Various organisations also rent the premises at weekends to generate income, so I often find myself there.

Overall, county grammars are the bigger problem, because their high numbers in certain areas lower the overall level of local comprehensives. In the case of super-selective schools, meanwhile, children are driven by relentless competition, which often leads to breakdowns and self-aggression in very talented young people — students who, in other schools, would have been top performers in the top sets that would boost their confidence and self worth.

And just to be clear — I am not saying this because my son would not get in. Quite the opposite. He is in the top sets and was one of only 10 pupils out of 250 to receive an Academic Excellence Award at the end of Year 7. It’s just that I would never, under any circumstances, send him to a single-sex school. We are all different and have different opinion. I respect your opinion even if we have in instance different choices:)

@latetothepartyweightlossinjections No, I’m not a teacher, nor am I a disgruntled one :)) — I simply prefer to form my own view rather than repeat whatever everyone else is saying. I’d also gently suggest that reducing a different opinion to personal guesses about who someone is, or what hidden motives they must have, feels a little simplistic to put it diplomatically. Iam quite sure that at Tiffin students are encouraged to develop independent thinking — not simply to echo what everyone else repeats
Not everyone who expresses a divergent view is secretly bitter, envious, or harbouring some private agenda. Sometimes it is just the result of independent thinking.
Of course, a super‑selective grammar like Tiffin Boys will always show very strong results; that is inevitable when you begin with pupils who are already among the highest achievers. But excellent results do not automatically prove that the teaching itself is outstanding. Several non‑selective schools in the local area have been rated Outstanding across every Ofsted measure, while Tiffin was assessed merely Good in key areas such as teaching quality.
That doesn’t make Tiffin a “bad” school — far from it. But it does show that reputation and student results aren’t the same as consistently exceptional provision. For the level of effort parents and students put into getting a place there, it’s fair to expect provision that is not just “good enough” but truly Outstanding across the board.

I hope you can a accept that sometimes somebody has a different opinion than you without personal remarks.

I had a similar decision to make a few years ago and considered living in Epsom within previous year catchments for Rosebery and Glynn (not grammars but single sex )

Of course I can accept that you have a different opinion. I apologise for my personal comments that wasn’t necessary but I do get frustrated when people make statements that are not based on objective evidence.

I am pointing out for the benefit of others who might read this that it appears your opinions are based on lack of objective evidence or experience with the school. You haven’t provided any evidence for your statements - in fact if you refer to the Ofsted report, which has a number of positive comments about the teachers at the school. In addition, you’re making assumptions about the level of effort that goes into getting a child into the school, when it seems you have no personal experience and just second hand anecdotal knowledge.

Apologies to the op for getting sided tracked on your op hope you have some of the answers you were looking for.

I mentioned report from a few years ago if you noticed. Of course Tiffin has done anything to improve yet they still don't have Outstanding in all criteria. This is the fact.

Btw Can anybody provide any objective evidence in the matter discussed? Anybody can say : I know better. One can even pretend to be a secretary who worked there or a parent. I have seen things like that on mumsnet. This is only a forum and opinions. Not a scientific research. We all are allowed to our opinions and conclusions.

Yes, we are side tracking. Let's help the OP. I wrote what I would do in her case and wish her most of good luck

I don’t see where Ofsted said the teaching at Tiffin boys wasn’t good enough. It pointed out deficiencies in the curriculum and the assessment policy.

@SometimesYouWinSometimesYouLearn You really have made generalizations about single sex schools! My girls happily mixed with boys outside school and were very happy not to have them in the classroom. They thrived and are not remotely socially awkward. Neither are boys we have met from single sex schools either. Most parents seek to balance out learning and social activities and I’m glad my girls didn’t have to put up with some of the sexual banter around boys. They could be discerning. I’d also say the best single sex schools concentrate on the learning needs of each sex and I think that works pretty well. Where parents get single sex options here no one refuses to go to them if allocated.

County grammars obviously don’t have comps. Virtually impossible. They are called all ability secondaries but the top layer of ability isn’t there. However plenty in Bucks have results that would put many comps to shame! They are not poor schools and some are very popular. Many friends have had dc at them ((head) teachers, accountants, business executives, etc) and all perfectly happy at our local secondary.

The point is if you're going to think critically as you suggest, making statements that are based on subjective opinions rather than evidence isn't very helpful for anyone. Maybe you're right no one can be truly objective on matters like this - I never said you couldn't have your own opinion just that it is flawed - and that is my opinion which I'm also allowed to have :)

@SometimesYouWinSometimesYouLearnDo you know how Ofsted work? The latest report was 2022. Anything before that is water under the bridge because so much can change. From 3 years ago it’s overall good but some areas were outstanding. The areas for improvement was as my summary. Therefore anything from before that is irrelevant.

Sometimes schools hit the jackpot with every teacher, SLT and governors being the best. Sometimes SLT haven’t prioritised the right things and they drop a ball from the many they are juggling. For schools that’s ok as long as they make the improvement. Ofsted could find something else next time but it won’t prevent this from being a very good school.

My issue would be that getting in is so difficult and stressful that Bucks is altogether a more pleasant experience!

Tizeror, I’m glad that single-sex schools work well for you. As a mother of a boy, I want him to learn how to behave appropriately around women in public spaces. No he doesny have a broad circle of female friends outside of the school. Not yet.

Oh, I didn’t mean to suggest that county grammar schools are performing badly – not at all and quite the opposite. What I was trying to say is that they have a strong impact on the performance of local comprehensives by “skimming off the cream.” This is very different from, for example, London grammars, which are basically super-selective and often too far to commute from many parts of London, leaving the top students in the comprehensives.

@latetothepartyweightlossinjections

of course

Wow.. your response implies that children who go to single sex schools don't learn to behave appropriately around the opposite sex....I find that troubling.

What are you getting from those personal attacks? And now you twisted my words to make a drama. What is wrong with you?

Send to whatever school you want. EOT.

I’m glad that single-sex schools work well for you. As a mother of a boy, I want him to learn how to behave appropriately around women in public spaces

@SometimesYouWinSometimesYouLearn

Why does he need to go to a mixed school
to learn that?

I think you have to work on the assumption they won't get into the grammar schools, and plan without it. If they make it it's a nice surprise, but many parents I know who want to try out are finding 9-10 year olds quite wilful and they don't want to be doing all this extra tuition, its a strain on their relationship. Sutton is about 1000 hopefuls for 160 places, most will be disappointed. In all honesty I drive by Wilsons all the time I was surprised by how unimpressive/ ugly the school itself looks for the reputation of it.