Are all Secondary’s this strict?

[Anythingisjustfine]

My DD started secondary last September. Although she’s happy there now most aren’t and I don’t like the feel or approach the school has, but I don’t know, does this all sound normal to you?

Children are receiving detentions at the drop a hat, for things as minor as touching a curtain or wriggling their feet. I’ve had to email several times and say my child isn’t going to detention because the reasons are so utterly ridiculous. It’s a general feeling amongst the kids that they don’t bother doing their homework or trying as they get detentions regardless. Then there are the negative points, children are racking them up in their hundreds.

the well behaved children are scared of putting a foot wrong, my daughter is permanently on edge and desperately doesn’t want to get a detention she’s wearing herself into the ground trying to please the school.

then there’s the homework, they’re getting 3 lots a night, some far longer than the allocated 10 minutes yet they get a detention if it’s not finished.

This isn’t just me, many of the parents feel the same. It doesn’t feel like a nice school where the children are being allowed to flourish, it feels more like a detention camp where they’re constantly being punished.

I expected secondary to be hard and I wanted my girl to be challenged but I also wanted her to feel safe, happy and unthreatened. The school quite literally feels like it’s being run on fear.

I’ve got another one starting here soon and my guts just telling me this is all wrong.

Is this just how it is now? Are all schools like this with the strictness?

Are they all this strict now?
No.
But it’s fairly common, sadly.

This is a gross oversimplification and others will no doubt share different experiences, but many state secondaries fall into one of two categories:

1. ultra strict, as you describe, with many minor behaviours being punished quite severely. However, this reduces disruption from poorly behaved children and means the lessons and the school generally can be run reasonably orderly.
2. less strict, so no punishments for looking at the clock when your not meant to. However chaos often ensues, lessons routinely disrupted by bad behaviour, teachers reduced to zoo-keeping with an obvious impact on teaching/learning.

Why is this? It seems an increasing minority of parents are unwilling and/or unable to parent their children properly, no discipline at home, no proper boundaries and often don’t support the school in trying to maintain discipline. Plus disruption from an increasing number of SEN kids whose needs are unmet (not saying all SEN kids are disruptive of course).

That's definitely not normal in my opinion, or at least it's not right and doesn't have to be this way. My son goes to a secondary school with extremely high numbers of kids with challenges such as SEND, also difficult parents who don't discipline their children, a high number of children with EFL who may not understand instructions clearly, looked after kids, poverty etc. Behaviour is very tricky to manage. They do have the points system and detentions but in my opinion they strike a good balance between being too strict and not strict enough.

If they were too strict then the disruptive kids would think 'what's the point' and be even more disruptive. For example the other day my son's class had a horrible supply teacher who gave a whole class punishment of behaviour points when only a handful of children were playing up. My son has a one-to-one, she complained to the pastoral manager, they removed all the behaviour points and told the supply they weren't coming back.

On the other hand, a boy recently threw dirty water from the corridor into a classroom covering some equipment and splashing a couple of people. They gave them a four day suspension.

I think my son's school strikes a balance between 1 and 2, which so far has been a relief. There is definitely disruption but it could be a lot worse from what I've read on here. My disabled son gets very upset with disruption and certainly has found it difficult but overall is coping much better than expected thank goodness.

@Readingallthetime this is what’s happened at my DDs school, they give a detention if you breath the wrong way and my dd said none of the kids care anymore, then the poor few that really do care are nervous wrecks, it’s an incredibly unhealthy environment for the kids.

It really feels like a lot of the teachers are on power trips and need to get a grip. My dd has 2 teachers who she loves, they are far more balanced and in response she clearly is enjoying those subjects much more. I asked her if the children play up more in those classes and she said not at all so I don’t think throwing out detentions like sweets is actually having any positive impact whatsoever.

I appreciate some kids really do need this discipline but I’m actually horrified that this is how our secondary schools are now being run, it’s appalling.

That's such a shame and unfair for the kids who are feeling so anxious about it. 😥

It's a consequence of generally poor behaviour in schools these days and the attitude of a lot of parents that their children can do no wrong. Also school funding - bigger classes, less pastoral support.

Instead of teachers being able to manage behaviour in a class they are getting intractable, rude children, who take no direction and and don't engage. It spoils it for everyone.

So a system of clearly laid out infractions that teachers can refer to is helpful. Children will look for any old loophole, answer back, argue. This is an attempt to try and stop the 'give an inch, take a mile' situation. The idea that any behaviour you let slide encourages similar behaviour to proliferate is one with increasing traction these days.

if children are asked not to touch curtains and to sit still I hardly think that’s a big ask. Also, homework over 10 mins also doesn’t seem that bad, how will she cope with self directed further education if 30 mins homework is insurmountable

It would be interesting to see if it applies to some sets, some subjects and some year groups.

It’s probably fair to say that some schools will be very definite in their expectations and some may be more flexible. You say you’ve emailed. What has been the response to those emails? Perhaps you could ask for a face to face meeting to express your concerns. You could ask about the amount of homework too.

The detentions for touching a curtain etc sound ridiculous.

The homework, I'm not so sure if thats unreasonable. I remember having at least an hour's worth of homework every night from year 7-9. Across maybe three or four subjects.

They never told you how long it was meant to take. It takes however long you spend on it while trying to get a good mark presumably?

No, it’s not a big ask. Getting a detention for it is a big response, though.

@ruralmural Really? So you think the teachers took the children round a cluttered Drama Studio telling what they can and can’t touch? Saying a child deserves to be punished for touching a curtain or shuffling their feet is absolutely disgusting behaviour, from you, not them. This is precisely what I mean by a power trip. You punish the children doing something actually wrong, not the masses who are trying their best. You honestly should be ashamed of yourself.

I always tell people who complain about schools being too strict to have a look at the Ofsted website. Search for secondaries rated inadequate for behaviour and attitudes.

You'll find lots of reports detailing schools which are out of control- no learning taking place due to disruption, children running around corridors banging windows and staff and students being assaulted.

If that is what these parents would prefer, there are plenty of schools like this available.

I have still to find these mythical schools which don't have strict rules but behaviour is great!

The strict behaviour expectations are now common, unfortunately. I worked in a school like this and hated it BUT I appreciate the need for it in a lot of schools. Lack of parental discipline, lack of pastoral support, too much time on social media and a prevailing attitude that teachers are on a power trip (they’re not) has led to rude, disruptive children and unfortunately, if you’re going to go down the zero tolerance route it has to apply to everyone. That said, some schools manage to find a balance and you generally find it gets a bit more relaxed after year 7.

As far as hw goes, I’m astounded that you think it should only be 30mins over 3 subjects! In some subjects I can see that being useful but in mine, that would just be a complete waste of time!

This describes my Grandsons school perfectly. It's run like a military camp. Last week they were told that they didn't have to wear blazers because of the extreme hear, BUT the pupils still had to take their blazers in and carry them over their arm! They weren't allowed to put them in their school bags. Totally nonsensical. Unfortunately now that most schools are academys, there doesn't seem to be anyone you can appeal to.

I hate these boot camp zero tolerance schools. Much praised academy in Hackney : investigated for emotional abuse and causing mental health issues.

My Dc went to a non-leafy S London comprehensive. There was a strong sense of discipline and behaviour was good, on the whole, and the overall ethos seemed to be that the teachers liked young people. That their achievements and successes were enjoyed and crusaded. That staff respected the young people and expected respect in return.

Staff had a high degree of autonomy over their own pedagogical style )in some schools the teachers are required to follow a set regime laid down by the head) and there seemed to be enjoyment and imagination in the teaching.

It really isn’t necessary to treat young people like criminals to get them to engage and behave.

We are looking at a school on sw London that is known for being strict. But I’m not sure if the reviews online are true or exaggerated.
Our dc is in year 5 so we are compiling a list of potential schools.

What I want to know is has ATAcademy been mentioned today?

So they went round a drama studio and where told specifically what they can and carnt touch. Then some deliberately touched something they carnt (curtain). They knew they weren't to touch yet they deliberately did. Yes they should be punished there was obviously some reason they they shouldn't touch it

I think that your DCs school and some of these responses are crazy! Of course that’s far too strict! My DCs school isn’t like that at all, neither do they have students running rampant causing chaos either! We have a behaviour system at our school from 1-4 and every lesson is graded where the vast majority of kids are getting 1/2 (which is the standard). 3s are uncommon and 4s are rare. They get break time detentions for forgetting homework (where they finish it), and after school detentions for repeated infractions or serious behaviour problems. Our school is lovely, and isn’t run military strict either. My kids are not afraid of going to school and they love their teachers.

I wouldn't assume teachers are 'on a power trip'. Classroom teachers don't get to decide the behaviour policies, but they are expected to follow them. Yes, there may be a couple (the ones your dd likes) who are bold enough to not follow the rules, but the kind of authoritarian headteacher and SLT who would run a school in this way are probably willing to make teachers' lives difficult (not just students') if they don't toe the line.

Teachers do not always agree with their school's policies, but most will not be unprofessional enough to show the kids that. Upholding the schools rules is part of teachers' jobs. They can't just opt out.

BTW I would hate to work in a school like that and would have hated my dc to go to one. A school with out-of-control bad behaviour is just as bad though.

This doesn’t sound like the school for your child, don’t understand why you would send another? Apply for another, yes maybe more inconvenient distance wise but education is a long journey 5-7 years if progress to 6th form. Did you not talk to existing students at open evening, talk to other parents locally before making choices?

The people on here who deem fair to get a detention for touching a curtain - do you have a little idea about how many SEN are unrecognised/masked/undiagnosed until well into secondary age or have you been living under a rock?

OP - YANBU.

I’m probably going to out myself with this comment as I’ve been moaning so much about how crazy it is lately. My very well-behaved son has received seven negative points this year and the narratives are completely ridiculous.

-dropping a pen and picking it up
-not having the right pen (he did but another child took it when he went to the toilet)
-dropping a ruler.

The infractions are SO petty. He is such a model student and yet comes home worrying I’m going to be cross he dropped a bloody pen on the floor. It seems to be the picking it up that causes the drama so I’ve had to double up all his stationary so he can just leave it on the floor (where it often gets crushed underfoot 🤦🏻‍♀️)

Honestly, no. My DD’s school is not like this at all. She is also Y7. They have rules but they are sensible. They are allowed to go to the loo when they want, they can can talk in corridors, they can use classrooms at lunchtime, uniform rules are quite relaxed, there’s quite a lot of scope to let them think and be themselves. I think the only thing they’d get an automatic detention for is if being seen with a phone in their hand on school grounds. She’s never had a detention. They don’t have loads of homework. They have a behaviour point system and she’s only ever got points for positive behaviours. Friends kids at a local school get a detention for everything and anything, the latest being because they didn’t pass the daily pencil case check. The kids leaving the local high school are only allowed to prom if they meet the behaviour, revision and attendance point system. It seems to run a bit like a prison.

DD school is a single sex selective grammar though and the standard of behaviour is known to be very high. She feels safe at school. They don’t need to enforce punishments and crowd control in the way that other local schools do. I’m very relieved she is where she is.

DC mature a lot from y7 to y12.
Courses at college level have various degrees of self direction depending on the course.